my home defense question again

Discussion in 'Caliber Zone' started by theonlychuck, Nov 25, 2007.

  1. theonlychuck

    theonlychuck Well-Known Member

    i know i posted this on the old board, but i'm still toying around with the idea of a .410 for home defense. right now the only thing i own is a .22 rifle. my parents are prob. getting me a c9 for christmas, and i plan on getting a shotgun in the near future, so this is all just ideas on what i should buy.

    some members were talking about how good the saiga's are, well i got into looking a little and they make a semi-auto .410. in my thinking this would be a good home defense choice for me. i would use the c9 to check things out if i were to go mobile, but if i definitely heard someone smash in, i was thinking it would be nice to use the bed as a rest and prop the .410 at the bedroom door. the ballistics i've seen show at close range (up to about 50 yards) the .410 more kinetic energy than a .357, .380, and .38 special. i also like the semi-auto part of it and the option to have extra mags. i was thinking about loading it with slugs and the site i was looking at, the guy was getting between 2in and 4.5 in groups at 50 yards. i know the shorter saiga barrel won't get that, but i'm also only talking about between 10 to 20 feet.

    also with the .410 i was thinking it would be quieter so i wouldn't temp deafen myself or my wife and with less recoil i could get off a second shot faster and more accurately. it also has a threaded barrel, so if i could find a flash suppressor i'd use that as well, again for a faster follow up shot so i don't temp blind myself.

    any and all comments are welcome, i'm a newbie and need your imput =] oh and one of the sites i was looking at ballistics at was http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm also it's just my wife and i so over penetration isn't that big of a deal as long as it doesn't enter a neighbor's house.
     
  2. theonlychuck

    theonlychuck Well-Known Member

    also i forgot to mention, the top of my bed is about 2'6" high, so if i were kneeling (well not exactly kneeling, but where you're close to sitting on your heels [well as close as a fat guy gets to sittiing on my heels]) granted i'm only 5'11", so it's at a pretty good height to use as a gun rest.
     

  3. PrimalSeal

    PrimalSeal Well-Known Member

    The only thing that comes to mind about the .410 caliber is that the shot isn't going to disperse very far as it's a small bore scattergun. That can be a good thing and a bad thing at the same time.

    Good thing.

    If your enemy, "intruder" or unwelcome guest is stationary in the doorway, hallway etc, you are most likely to impact point of aim with all your shot from the round. That's a good thing as it's chances of over penetrating isn't that great. Bird shot would NOT be a good choice here, as it lacks the velocity to penetrate deep enough and reach the vital areas. I would recommend buck shot for a home defense round. You are going to experience greater recoil because of that, and also may have over penetration issues through walls/doors, so choose your HD/SD rounds carefully. I believe someone stated their recommendations for buckshot use as a HD round. I forget the number but I think it was #1 or #2. *Anyone feel free to correct me on this.*

    Bad Thing.

    If you're trying to hit a moving target, someone running from left to right or any other direction where you would have to swing the barrel of the shotty, you have less of a chance of hitting your intended target as the shot pattern is so small. Now, you would have less of a chance hitting a moving target with a slug or a bullet from a rifle or pistol, so your chances ARE better with a shotgun, but I wouldn't recommend a .410. The smallest guage of scattergun I would use as a HD/SD weapon would be a 20 guage, just for shot patterns.

    The key here is training with your HD weapon. If you choose the .410, that's great, just make sure that you KNOW YOUR WEAPON!!!!!!! I can't stress this enough. Only you can choose what you are going to trust your life with. As such, you are the one responsible for ensuring that you have the training that you need to accomplish your goal should a situation like this arise. Also, make sure that your spouse knows the actions that you are going to take in this type of situation so she knows how to react accordingly. The last thing you want to have happen is to accidently shoot a member of your own family. Do dry runs *WITHOUT THE WEAPON OR AT LEAST WITHOUT AMMO!!!!!!* practicing movements, communications and/or hand signals. The last thing you want to do is alert an intruder to your location, you need the element of suprise. If they come looking for you, then that's a whole other story. I am not saying that you should let the person have full reign in your house, but don't go looking for a fight, you don't know what tactics they are using against you. If they don't know where you are, you have the element of suprise and the upper hand as you know your house layout and are familiar with it. Most of all, be quiet and plan evacuation routes out of your home for yourself, spouse and children if you have them. At that point you can alert authorities to the situation without unnecessary bloodshed, yours or theirs.

    Also, think about getting a ferocious dog... They usually intimidate and deter most intruders fairly well.

    Anyone feel free to critique my comments or add anything that you feel I've left out as this is just my $0.02....
     
  4. Newskate9

    Newskate9 Well-Known Member

    one of the best things about this board, is you ask a question and caring folks take the time to give many answers - then you have to think what's best for you as PS said. Here's more fodder to consider.

    I think this way - in a situation as you described - where you hear something, decide to consider it bad, take up arms and take a defensive position - you have to ask yourself "What is my best outcome here?" I don't believe the best outcome is capturing the BG, or worse. I believe it's you and your wife being safe. In this situation, you'd alert your wife and take concealment. You could wait for the BG to enter your door, but why would you? He may be some trained person who knows you're there. He may be on drugs, etc. What are you trying to accomplish.

    In my HD course, the recommended course of action is to get ready to defend yourself, take a defensive position and ready to act. Then while your wife is calling 911, you are announcing to your BG that you know he's there, you have a gun and are trained to use it, and that you are calling 911. You may want to repeat this warning while 911 is on the phone so they have record of it.

    Then if BG decides to test your theory, you can show him you're not a liar.

    The point - IN THE SITUATION YOU DESCRIBED - IMHO, you take up defensive position, let them know you know, and call for help. There are no hero points for lying in wait and then shooting someone. "Mr. Jones, the intruder was in your house for 15 mins and you didn't call 911, but decided to shoot him, why?"

    If you have to go mobile, then that's a new situation you must consider - like PS says, think it out, practice, practice, practice.

    Last quick thoughts: A bed is concealment - but not cover. You can hide there, but unless you sleep on a block of maple, a bed is NOT going to stop a bullet. If you have the time to hear, decide, get up, get your gun, alert your wife, and take a defensive position - you may want to find one behind something that will stop a bullet if you can. I have a book case in my bedroom, for example.

    And - I'm not trained to clear a room or a building - that is, search and make it safe. If I hear something and have time, in my house I have kids to consider - either determining it's not a BG, and if it is, defending / acting for their safety. So, the bedroom position for me is not gonna work. BUT - once I determine they are safe, the BG is downstairs - then there's no way he's getting upstairs, the calls get made by that time, etc. Again, different situation.

    Sorry for the ramble - I've asked your very same question 100 ways myself and I've learned no two situations are alike, and practice and thinking are key.

    VERY LAST POINT - must be the coffee - like PS says, get a dog. I've got two. I hate dirty carpets, vacuuming the floors every day, getting up to let them out, paying for dog food, vet bills........... But my dogs are the noisiest things in the house and they are larger dogs. Someone may get close and may even get in.... but they'll have Rover to think about first, and his close friend. By that time, God willing, I'll be ready too.

    ** that's my penny to add to PS's 2 cents.... all other input welcome of course **
     
  5. squeak_D

    squeak_D Guest

    Those Saiga shotguns are extremely reliable and very well built semi-auto shotguns. You have to use a bit of caution when using a shotgun for home defense. In the heat of the moment so much can happen. You have to take into consideration the rate of spread with shotguns too. One thing I would NEVER suggest, but many people do this..., and that's using a high powered hunting rifle or assault weapon for home defense. These most def do the job (9 times out of 10) with one shot too, BUT they are so dangerous to use for home defense. Using something like an .06 or .308, or .223, or 7.62 is just dangerous. That ammunition is designed to go in and out. I've read countless stories over the years where someone used a high powered rifle to shoot at an intruder, and the round went clean through the person, out the wall of the house, and someone else was injured.

    IMO, a decent pistol would do the job. A well aimed shot with a pistol is very effective, and obviously the higher the cal is the more stopping power you'll have. People will also typically keep a .22, .25, or .32 semi auto in the night-stand. Companies such as Cobra, and Kel-Tec come to mind here.

    Also keep in mind the percussion blast of a shotgun fired indoors can be real nasty at times. Just the percussion blast alone could shatter glass objects within the room. I saw a video once where someone shot a pistol, and the precussion blast of the pistol shattered the floures. lights above him (I think it was a store robbery video).

    Personally I prefer to use a pistol for home defense. When it comes to protecting my family I want something light that won't compromise my mobility. I have plans of action for my home as well if an intruder gets in (hope I never have to use it though). I've got spare mags hidden in places you wouldn't even think to look. I also have household items that look like everyday things, but are designed to hide weapons. You can never be too safe IMO. Good luck and I hope you find what works best for your needs.

    Squeak
     
  6. Mike_AZ

    Mike_AZ U.S.S.

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  7. 357fan

    357fan Active Member

    I'd avoid the slugs and go for buckshot. Other than that, go for it.
     
  8. Ari

    Ari Guest

    I want something rifled for home D.... If I get into a spot where I have to make a tight shot I want the round going where I aim it. (I might not have 3 inches to spare) I think the 995 is a great home D gun it is very accurate and easy it handle indoors. With a reflex or a reddot on top of it, it is really pretty fast. Though kinetic energy can be calculated and gives us a base line when comparing rounds it is really irelavent when it comes to stopping a target..
     
  9. rimfirehunter

    rimfirehunter Well-Known Member

    theonlychuck,

    If I were to use a .410 as a home defense shotgun my choice of ammo would be one of the 5 pellet buck loads offered by any of the major ammo makers. Currently these are 2 1/2" 00 or 3" 000. The buck loads offer more penetration than any shot load at across the room distances, but does not have the excessive over penetration like the same loads do in 12ga.

    Before back surgery ended my shotgun shooting days, my choice for a home defense shotgun was a 20ga with 18.5" or 20" cylinder bore barrel and 2 3/4" #3 buckshot. This is a 20 pellet load and is devestating at inside the home distances without excessive over penetration. Since you are still in the "looking around" phase I suggest you take a serious look at the 20ga in the configuration I mentioned. If you really like Saiga shotguns you can get one in 20ga with barrel options of 19" or 22.4".
    http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_20.htm

    I am not a big fan of using bird shot loads in a shotgun for home defense needs. At really close distances they can be very effective, but during the winter months heavy clothing can limit the penetration of just about any shot load, except for those shot at nearly point blank range.

    Will offer yet another option for consideration and that being a pistol caliber carbine in 9mm, 40S&W in semi-auto or .38/.357Mag in a lever rifle. Since I was unable to continue shooting my 20ga I chose a lever rifle shooting .44Special ammo instead of .44Mag's. As of a week ago I added a HiPoint 995 in 9mm to my home defense pistol caliber carbine inventory and so far it looks to be a darn fine choice for my needs.

    Hope this helps and post some feedback once you make a decision.

    rimfirehunter
     
  10. theonlychuck

    theonlychuck Well-Known Member

    i have 2 dogs, a large dog and a medium sized dog. the smaller dog loves to bark, the large dog has a scary bark and only barks if there's something to bark at (when he barks i go look). the reason i was looking at the .410 for a defensive position is because the way my house is set up. actually i'll just make a diagram in paint. also both of our cell phones are in our bedroom at night, so my wife will def. be calling 911, and i thought about the bed as a rest more for a steady line of site, not really cover.

    to rimfirehunter - i was also thinking about the .410 buckshot, i might look into a 20 ga. like i said this is just in the idea phase. i was originally thinking of .410 slugs since over penetration isn't that big of a deal right now (well, not with the .410) i do like the 995, again i'm not set in stone on anything yet.

    here's a basic layout of the house:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Ari

    Ari Guest

    Nice lay out! Nice choke point too! I think the 4095 or the 995 would work great in there. One thing to remember is that you still need to practice with your weapons 410 can get really spendy to practice with.
     
  12. PrimalSeal

    PrimalSeal Well-Known Member

    Excellent layout Chuck, just like Ari said. I do like that bottle neck in your bathroom. At that point the only thing I would be worried about is having to clear the house for additional bad guys and then going down into the basement. Hell, that's what the cops are for right?
     
  13. theonlychuck

    theonlychuck Well-Known Member

    i didn't think about the price of the .410 slugs, that does factor in, maybe i will consider a 995 or 4095...this is why i love this forum, so my different opinions to think about. oh and also the basement is a walk-out basement, but like you said, i'll leave that to the cops unless i absolutely have to.