Ok, too much time subjected to gansta movies....

Discussion in 'General Firearms Discussion' started by neothespian, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. neothespian

    neothespian Well-Known Member

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    So, in an effort to not be so "closed minded", I was willingly subjected to two "landmark" films as claimed by two young stagehands. One was called "Baby Boy" and the other one was "ATL". Of course, I'm hardly one to turn my nose up on any culture because I'm just not like that......

    But BOY these movies are total junk!!!

    But that's not the point. The point is that in both movies, there was a prodigious ammount of "hardcore soulja" weapons flaunted about, with one of the most popular next to the idiot Mac-10 was a sawed-off shotgun. Most of the ones in these movies were getto pieces of junk that would scare me just being in the same block of them being fired.

    But, this of course only got me thinking.

    After debating this and various other implausable gun myths with some of my younger co-workers, I came home and hit the books in research. I found data, arrest rates, AFT regulations, history and what not on the phenomenon of the sawed off shotgun. Then I took stock of what a legitimate gun owner and enthusiast would have at his or her disposal. Then I added in the insane ammount of machinery and off the wall materials that a stage designer would have just lying around.

    The results? A question; CAN you make an effective, purpose built sawed off shotgun with all the safety elements in place while still keeping it completely legal with the ATF and the state regulations that the weapon is designed and built in?

    I did get some solid numbers and facts including arrest rates and incidents documented with sawed off shotguns by those NOT of the legal mindset. It also is some note that the AFT reported that over half of these weapons recovered were inoperative or otherwise unable to fire. I also found the hard numbers on what is considered a sawed off shotgun by the FEDERAL standard of the AFT which for note is a barrel length of no less than 18 inches (18.5 in the state of Arizona where I live...like the 1/2 inch made alot of difference) OR an overall length of no less than 26 inches. Pretty short by anyone's sensible standards if you ask me!

    I also found out some interesting facts, such as the recoil of a shotgun with no choke is diminished as the barrel is shortened, with an obvious decrease in accuracy over extended distances. There was also a surprising amount of metallurgy reports on the effects of firing a shotgun at short distances that were interesting.

    In short (pardon the pun), am I insane to actively look into PROPERLY reducing the length of a shotgun while trying to adhere to as many safety standards as mechanically possible? I'm very curious about this since it's a project that could not only be fun but VERY informative and would placate my need to build something this month since by then it will be too cold to build and ride a new scooter....

    Opinions? Objections? Am I applying too much "English Resolve" as one of my stagehands put it, to a "Tight" method of firearms?
     
  2. I do not think you are insane to do this if you do it correctly and by the law.

    If it is what interests you, go for it.

    Are you thinking pump shotgun or double barrel? What gauge?

    I think the double barrel shotgun looks scary when its been cut down :D
     

  3. neothespian

    neothespian Well-Known Member

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    That is the sick fun of this project: Getting the smallest footprint possible with the most federal regulations followed and then some. Making a practical, safe weapon.

    As far as configuration, I am actually thinking of trying my hand at a single shot breakload before moving onto the double barrel. I can pick up a used NEF 12 or 20 gauge for as cheap as 65 in Phoenix. A double Barrel will START at 250 to 300. If this does go well I might look into the double barrel depending on performance and my ability to effectively fire it.
     
  4. I do not think there is a lot of issues as far as safety features. All of that is in the center of the shotgun and will not be cut away.

    I have shot a Mossberg 500 12 gauge with a 11 1/2 inch barrel and a pistol grip and although it kicked like heck it was safe and could be done.

    Its just a matter of how you want to cut the barrel (that 1/2 inch may be the difference between freedom and prison :wink: ) and how you want to shape the stock. Pistol grip?

    Then do you want to fix some sort of sling onto it so you can carry it.

    I think the break open will give you a shorter gun than a pump, because you do not have the problem of the magazine tube being so long and you cant go any shorter than it
     
  5. PrimalSeal

    PrimalSeal Well-Known Member

    As I told you in the chat room Neo, the thing you have to consider is this. Once you cut that barrel down, you are not going to have the compression factor that all shotgun barrels have, either in a choke tube or in a set choke barrel. These features compress the shot and wad as it exits the barrel to tighten the shot pattern at longer ranges. Once you cut the barrel that shot pattern is going to expand at exponential rates, as it's not going to have the compression necessary to maintain a tight pattern. Maximum effective range will be about 20 yards!!! For SD or HD at close quarters it's great, but I wouldn't go hunting with it.
     
  6. I call it the Ugly Stick. 20GA. 18 1/2" barrel, 27" overall.

    [​IMG]

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    I did this a while back. Haven't shot it. Need to finish the barrel; still rough at the cut.

    I kinda wish now I hadn't done it. It was a decent gun and now it's hard to justify it. Oh well, it was a learning experience. A reminder to me to think long and hard before taking a saw to a firearm.

    It does look a bit intimidating hanging from a back scabbard. And you can easily hold it one-handed. You can shoot it one handed, too. Just come over and I'll watch you do it. :D
    -'bridge
     
  7. Silicon Wolverine

    Silicon Wolverine Well-Known Member

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  8. andrew241

    andrew241 Member

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    Ohio
    SW I want one of those.

    Stonebridge, if Carrolton was a little closer I would come shoot that bad boy lol. Wait Carolton is about 50 miles away lol.
     
  9. This one's on Gunbroker w/ a $5 transfer tax. I'm not sure how AOW transfers work. Anybody?

    [​IMG]

    -'bridge
     
  10. andrew241

    andrew241 Member

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    Ohio
    Now that looks like it could cause some trouble lol
     
  11. billybybose

    billybybose Guest

    Dang thats short.I also like those shorty .223s by I think bushmaster.
     
  12. Silicon Wolverine

    Silicon Wolverine Well-Known Member

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    the only way it can have a 5$ transfer tax is if its an AOW. Unless its a pistol titled reciever thats a SBS.

    SW
     
  13. andrew241

    andrew241 Member

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    Ohio
    either way I want one lol.
     
  14. Kagern

    Kagern Guest

    Local range has a bunch of those (though the ones he has use a folding front vert grip). Says they are popular with the premise security guys (can't legally carry them here). They make a holster for them (no BS, seen it with my own two eyes), small of back style, and actually quite concealable under a jacket. Shooting them sucked bad though. It takes a lot of practice to be able to use it off the hip. You almost always end up aiming high just because of the geometry of it and your arms. Only had one guy (Marine with way too many class 3 toys) who was able to keep it on target out to 25 yards.
     
  15. If I was going to go the whole hog, I would want one of these:

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    Its a Tormix 8 inch Saiga 12. Apparently its the shortest a Saiga can be shortened while still able to cycle.

    An AOW stamp is only applicable to weapons that have NEVER been a full stock shotgun.

    Any shotgun that you buy that has a stock can never be converted to a AOW. If you buy a brand new stockless shotgun, that could be converted to a AOW.

    An AOW can only be fired with one hand.
     
  16. A sawed off shotgun is not good for hunting anything. It is a close quarter attack or defend weapon. It is a specialty weapon, you could get away with carrying one under a trenchcoat, while a fullsize shotgun would not be so easy to conceal.
     
  17. septimius

    septimius Guest

    my son the gangsta:

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  18. Whittey

    Whittey Guest

    I've tried that a couple times. Man, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside like that.


    -=Whittey=-