10 shots of .22 to the head, or 2 shots of .40 COM?

Discussion in 'Vintage Topic Archive (Sept - 2009)' started by 4095fanatic, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. Was just thinking about shot placement... you know the sayings: "shot placement beats caliber", "A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45", "a 9mm to the head is worth three .45 to the arm", etc. Well, that brings up an interesting question: lets say you're a recoil sensitive shooter and you could hit a target 10 times in under 3 seconds in the head, but due to recoil/reset you could only get 2 rounds of .40 off in the same time frame, and only COM. Which would be the better carry option?

    P.S. this is only hypothetical... I may not be the best shooter on the planet (far from it, actually), but I'm confident I can do 2 to the chest and 1 to the head quite well with my .40 or .45 :). Just looking to see the debate it inspires. And for the sake of the argument, assume that the target is 7 yards away and moving slow enough you have time to get either off before the attacker is upon you.
     
  2. My opinion: what you're most comfortable with, functionally. What I mean by 'functional' is to say that you are comfortable with the firearm both operationally (can punch out and fire accurately under duress), and mentally are assured of the effectiveness of that firearm. (If I think I'm using an under powered system, that may detrimentally affect how I operate it - e.g. firing too rapidly at the cost of accuracy with a .22).

    If a guy is assured of the effectiveness of a 9mm, and shoots well with that 9mm, and is confident of its performance, he sure as heck don't *need* to bother the 40SW
     

  3. Silicon Wolverine

    Silicon Wolverine Well-Known Member

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    1 22lr to the head should be sufficient to stop a would be attacker, but that said, bigger is better if you arent sure.

    SW
     
  4. I'd rather a .22 than a rock or a sling shot for sure, but would rather a larger caliber if possible.

    However, to play along here, I would think that 10 head shots would drop the attacker much faster than 2 COM shots from a .40. Reason being, shot to the head, brain is dead and the body doesn't know it yet. You remove all cognitive function, all motor functions cease and the individual expires rather quickly.

    COM, the BG is hurt, but maintains some control over motor functions of the body, it all comes down to how much will power that person has to overcome the pain and obvious imminent death so they can continue to try hurting you. Depending on where the shot is placed, COM *Which DOES include the top of the abdomen area* under the rib cage, intestines, stomach etc, you haven't hit vitals, so death will be slow. That gives the attacker more time to get to you.

    Also, if the attacker is on drugs and is high as hoot, a head shot is what will bring him down the fastest. Just my $0.02.
     
  5. Ari

    Ari Guest

    If you have to use the weapon on someone you will not be thinking about shot placement. The other thing to think about the head is a very small target. If you have ever done any boxing the head can even be hard to hit with boxing gloves let alone with a bullet. There are many videos where LEOs shoot it out with the BG and no one hits anything. Remember the video of the two troopers who stopped the two brothers in the blue suburban. The brothers and the troopers exchange fire point blank and no one gets hit. (If I can find the video I will post it.) If that happens to trained LEOs what do you think is going to happen to part time shooters?

    With all the types of guns you can chose from there is no reason that someone who is a recoil sensitive shooter should carry a 22lr. If it is worth doing it is worth doing right. The first place I would go with someone who does not like recoil is with a 4 inch 38spec in an all steel gun. The weight of the steel will cut the felt recoil down. Then it is off to the range to practice practice practice (remember shoot center mass)
     



  6. Bravo, +1
     
  7. Though I am a .45 caliber guy I have been shooting my wife's P-22 alot and I am really getting fond of it. I also practice point shooting with it as fast as I can pull the trigger.

    In most everyday situations I would not feel under prepared to have 10 rounds of Velocriters loaded in the P-22 in a belly band.

    In another post I mentioned a friend of mine who is a rather large, husky fellow. He got shot one time with a .22 and said it hurt really bad and that he never wants to get shot with one again.

    The Velociter is a hyper-velocity round designed to bring down Coyote sized animals. I feel that in 90% of any situations that I might encounter as a civilian in the area in which I live that the .22 Velocriter out of a P-22 would be sufficient to stop the aggression.
     
  8. neothespian

    neothespian Member

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    10 shots from a .22 WILL stop many people.

    I know.

    There's all this talk about shot placement and mass shots, but you have to take the psycological element. How many of you HAVE been shot? It's a nerve jarring experience. Most people who are committing a crime are desperate for some reason or another and already in a heightened sense. The shock of actually getting shot does strange things to the body. Repeat this 10 times, with some in the joints of the limb, some in the soft parts and others in "critical" areas, and then you have a combo for disaster.

    Either way, the target will suffer.

    And, for those who think the .22 is a "weak" round, I still resort to my tried and true line: "Have YOU ever been shot with one? Then don't assume."
     
  9. rrjenn

    rrjenn Guest

    What I heard was that there were several hits on both parties but were all in the chest and both were wearing protective vests.
     
  10. well said

     
  11. Three .223 FMJs fired from an A2 has the ability to drop a man quite easily, even without expansion or vital hits. Three 22 caliber pieces of lead causes enough over-stimulation that only someone influenced by steroids or PCP would be able to overcome it. More than triple that with 22lr rounds and I doubt the guy gets up before your boot is wiping his face across your bedroom floor.
     
  12. squeak_D

    squeak_D Guest

    Im surprised people don't talk about this often, but the truth is that a good aimed defensive shot to the head with a .22 has been for years said to be of the worst rounds to be shot in the head with.

    A .22 round to the head doesn't do its damage from the initial impact. It's what happens after impact. A .22 round is stong enough to penetrate the skull, yet once it enters your head, the velocity drops drastically from the impact of the skull bone. In a majority of .22 headshots the round will travel through the brain completey and hit the other side of your skull, but due to decreased velocity when it hits the other side of your skull the round then reflects on the second hit. In short the .22 round bounces around in your dome doing a lot of tissue damage.

    A few years back we had a "gas station sniper" here in West Virginia, and he was taking people out with .22 head shots. The effectiveness of the .22 round in taking out a person was brought up several times during the media coverage of this.

    **also on a side not, the effectiveness of a .22 round to the head and its ability to drop a man was even on one of the CSI show episodes. I watched an epsiode (can't remember if it was CSI Miami, New York, but one of those CSI shows), and they had a balistics expert talking about how deadly a .22 round to the head can be.., it was pretty cool, and they showed a very graphic depiction of what happens.., these shows have even shown how a high powered assault round does its damage. I think the round they showed was a .223**

    Squeak
     
  13. Please note everyone: hypothetical lol. In a SD situation ill be dumping either 9mm or .40 COM. I would never advocate in a SD situation aiming for the head for your average shooter (Navy SEALs and Delta Force are exempt).
     
  14. Mike_AZ

    Mike_AZ U.S.S. Member

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    I have heard the whole 22 bounces around in the skull thing for years, but I have to wonder if that "fact" is just a urban legend? A cursory search did not turn up anything authoritative. Does anyone have a link to any ballistics studies that back up this claim? As to whether a .22 is a deadly round, this article seems to support the claim that it is. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7082795.stm
     
  15. squeak_D

    squeak_D Guest

    I know someone personally that died from a .22 round to the head. It was an accidental discharge, but it was as said. The first inital strike through didn't kill him. The damage was done from the .22 ping pong effect within the head. I think I was 16 when this happened. Happened to a guy I knew in school.

    Squeak
     
  16. squeak_D

    squeak_D Guest

    Man, it's driving me crazy! I wish I could remember that CSI episode where they talked about the damage a 22 cal headshot can be. I say that I'm 95% sure it was CSI Miami. That hot a$$ blonde (Emily Proctor) who plays Kelly on the show is their ballistics expert. I'm almost certain it was her explaining it to members of the team. There was even a very graphic depcition of it. Showed the bullet going in, through and then bouncing off the other side.

    Maybe if that hottie Emily Proctor wasn't on the show my memory would be better :)
     
  17. Mike_AZ

    Mike_AZ U.S.S. Member

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    This is often cited in Hollywood and fiction novels, I just wonder is it is actually backed up by forensics.

    P.S. Emily Proctor is hot. I particularly liked her in her in this movie. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133643/
     
  18. I've seen a .22 ricochet around a rib cage... If it bounces off a rib after penetrating, can imagine would do the same inside the skull as well.
     
  19. z71silverado98

    z71silverado98 Member

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    I think a Hi-Cap 22 pistol could contend as a good defensive weapon as long as shots can be fired rapidly w/ steady aim. 10 holes from a .22 equal roughly (or slightly better than) the damage from 10 pellets of 00 buck. The use of velocitors or stingers would obviously increase effectiveness.


    As far as a .22 head shot's ability to kill, we'd trap feral hogs when I was around 12. A .22 revolver was used to take down the hogs after trapped. 1 well placed shot just behind the ear and angled towards the snout would drop the hogs almost instantly regardless of size. javalenas being the exception.

    we switched to a 38spl for them after 7shots of .22 failed to drop the first javalena. However, these things were enraged and likely running on pure adrenaline compared to the frightened and defensive hogs.

    For the claim that .22 scrambles the brains, we never opened the skull but did find relatively sharp 'coin' shaped bullets lodged in the neck/spine on several occasions.
     
  20. rrjenn

    rrjenn Guest

    A .22 short or long is a squirrelly round as you say. Bones will deflect them. Famous last words dictate that the only way to be sure is to drop a nuke. Not having a nuke, the largest round you can muster will be best. A .22 mag might not be as squirrelly, and is the lowest power gun I would bother using for the purpose this thread seems to be about. Having said that, I've never been shot by any size bullet and don't intend to try it out to see what is most effective. Any gun is better than no gun at all like the many targets wondering around the gun free zones can attest to. Gun free zones lol. Might as well call them willing victim zones. You'll never catch me in one without a firearm and I spent several years in college and always had a .38 special snubby handy.