.223 40 grain substitute for .22 Mag.

Discussion in 'Reloading Room' started by ajole, May 17, 2015.

  1. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    So, as .22 Mag is now about $14 per 50, or .28 cents per shell, I've been wondering, can I build 40 grain .223 that will go 1900-2000 fps, for less?

    Two reasons for the velocity...first, it's to mimic the .22 mag, and NOT blow up the target, possibly food, and second, less powder will keep cost down.

    I know there are fast loadings in the light bullets, but no idea if there's a reduced charge slow load.

    And, I'm not sure the small amount of powder will be safe, or reliable. Oddly, I don't care if it will cycle an AR, I have a break action to use it in, or I can just cycle by hand.

    Just starting my research, wondering if anyone has tried this, or has info?
     
  2. greg_r

    greg_r Lifetime Supporter

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    Yes you can. I cast 22 bullets for mine also. I shoot mine out of a break barrel, but could hand cycle out of my MSR if I wanted to. I load to velocities close to WMR.
     

  3. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

    Yes, you can use the 40gr V-MAX and push them safely at 1900-2000fps.
    You'll need to use a powder that gives you at MINIMUM a 50% case fill to ensure you don't run the chance of a secondary powder detonation. I load 40gr V-MAX .223 for varmints, but I don't run them that slow. There are two powders that I have found work very well; AR-Comp and Ramshot TAC.

    Looking at the numbers for the fps you want; the Ramshot at 69% case capacity should push the pill at ~1996fps at the muzzle, and the AR-Comp at 68.6% case capacity should push the pill at ~2044fps at the muzzle. Hogdon CFE is another good powder I have used, harder to find around here due to popularity, and will give you very close to the AR-Comp with the same load. Those numbers are projected using a 16" barrel.


    .
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2015
  4. This really is interesting, here in the east not to many people mess around with varmint rounds for possible food.

    Rifle wise its either 22LR or .243 and up. Either squirrels or Deer.

    Everything in between either gets the shot gun, or 9mm.

    Even 5.56 isnt very popular here.
     
  5. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Thanks Flash!

    Just so happens...last night I bought a pound of CFE, and 100 V-Max 40 grains.:p

    I'm in a 20 inch gun, so it will be interesting how much velocity I'll get, I'm searching for a cheap crony now.;)

    With .22LR still hard to find, ranges over 100 yards being common, and the costs, I'm just playing around for a decent SHTF storage alternative to rimfires. If I can get good accuracy and low cost, instead of buying a few thousand rounds of .22 Mag and/or .17, I can just stock up on components, which I can still find at decent prices.

    The other fun thing...if I get a .223 suppressor, it's able to work on my Ruger take down .22, and easy to fit to the AR, and, while not subsonic, a 2000 fps round should be quieter than a 3000 fps commercial round.

    I have more than a few "deer calibre" rifles, though in SHTF scenarios, I'd have no problem using a .223 for the job.;)
     
  6. histed

    histed Supporting Member

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    If you can find it, between X and Y.5 grains of Blue Dot will give you what you're looking for. Another good powder is Trail Boss. The Lyman manuals have data for Trail Boss and, if you're interested, I'll try to find the link to reduced .223 loads. The Blue Dot loads work very well in my bolt action for small game.


    [Mod note]load recipe removed
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2015
  7. greg_r

    greg_r Lifetime Supporter

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    Hogdon says a MINIMUM charge of CFE223 with a 40 grain Nosler is 2X.X grains at over 3400 fps. Going below minimum can cause a KABOOM.

    I load lead so I'm not going to be much help to you, but H4198 gives me 1600 - 1700 fps with the cast Bator bullet.

    And there is a possibility of a jacketed bullet sticking in the bore. How low can you go before one sticks in a 20" barrel?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2015
  8. greg_r

    greg_r Lifetime Supporter

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    I have also used Unique behind the 40 .223, but it is more in the 22 Hornet range
     
  9. In my .308 Win I have used Unique and TiteGroup for what I call cat sneeze loads. That said the 168 grain bullet with Unique will break the sound barrier, the 90 grain SWC with TiteGroup not so much. With your Rifle what you want should be very doable and a crono with help big time.
     
  10. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    This is a great opportunity to develop some loads that are "should have been" loads for the
    good old 22WMR... I'd like to see what can be done with minimal powder and a big bullet!
    There are subsonic .223 load listings which would be a great starting point. If the case is
    too big, or the powder load too small (RE: Flashbang) it would not work due to (just guessing)
    the ignition phase blowing most of the mass of powder away from the primer, and later it
    ignites unevenly, causing pressure waves that may damage the chamber?
     
  11. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Considering various jacketed bullets escape 16-26 inch barrels at subsonic speeds, I'm not too worried about that. Though I will be careful to check between rounds.

    Most of the sub sonics involve heavier bullets, I've checked that a bit.

    And the pressure issues are real, most lighter bullets use more powder, and there can be serious issues in rifle cases with air pockets and over pressure, that's the thing I'm really serious about avoiding.:eek:
     
  12. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    I was thinking a 55 gr BT for starters...



    Could go all the way up to a 77 gr.
     
  13. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Are there any rifle powders which are deliberately high-volume? The rifle equivalent of Trail Boss or something?

    I've got friends in the BP community who "cut" their powder with corn-meal (and other stuff) in order to make volume. Is it safe to do the same thing with smokeless?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  14. greg_r

    greg_r Lifetime Supporter

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    Trail Boss, I understand has been used in the 223, I have never tried it though.

    I have used fillers in the past to keep the powder against the primer, a practice I have stopped.
     
  15. greg_r

    greg_r Lifetime Supporter

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    A common practice for subsonics is to work down until you get there. There have been instances of bullets sticking when doing that. Different bullets react differently. Just something to watch for. My subsonic 300 blk average just under 1000fps out of a single shot 16" barrel. 230 gr Lee cast sized to .309. Never tried to make my 223 subsonic.
     
  16. histed

    histed Supporting Member

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    greg - why did you stop? I've seen others (mostly on the castboolits forum) use dacron for cat sneeze loads, but never tried it myself. I know of no rifle equivalent of TB, but Hodgdon does list "Youth loads" on its website. They also have information on developing reduced loads with TB. I've seen data on .223 loads with 2400, Unique and Enforcer, but never tried these.
     
  17. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

    I typically load 208gr bullets for my bolt action 7.62x54R, .308 and .300BLK subsonics. For those I will use TB as my preferred powder. I push them right around 1050-1070fps which gives me good suppression and still maintains good accuracy. In the .300BLK AR platform, I try to stay with the 1680 as it will cycle the bolt. In all honesty, by the time you get a .223 down to subsonic speeds, you would be better off shooting a standard velocity .22LR suppressed. The only reason I hang a can on the .223 is so I don't need ear protection when shooting. If I want good performance with a subsonic, I stick to the 30 caliber rounds.

    Just my opinion. :)
     
  18. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

    I have used Red Dot for subsonic .300BLK 208gr at 67% case capacity. It gave me right around 1050fps and decent accuracy at 50 yards.

    I do not, and do not recommend, use fillers in powders.

    .
     
  19. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter


    Buy a .300BLK upper... you'll be glad you did. ;)
     
  20. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Makes sense to me, the advantage of lighter bullets is usually more speed. You go slow, you need more mass to get energy and penetration.

    Target shooting, of course, is different.

    I'm not after target shooting loads, nor subsonics, I want light varmint loads, accurate enough to knock a squirrel's head clean off, but able to take out coyotes and similar sized critters; and I'd like to do it in that 40 grain range the .22 Mag uses.

    Sounds like there are more than a few ways to skin this cat, so it might be a fun project for this summer. :)