[lklawson]

Considering trying the Fort Scott all copper, 40 gr., TUI bullets. I'd like to stick with the published powders (5, 7, True Blue). The published data lists Hornady V-MAX, Siera Hornet and SPT at 35 gr. to 45 gr.

I've done bullet substitution before but never with a cartridge as fiddly as the 5.7. Any recommendations/suggestions on which bullet/powder combo to start with when substituting the Fort Scott all copper 40 gr.? By bullet weight or by length?

Thanks!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

No bites yet.

@greg_r any suggestions on substituting? In your experience should I start the substitution based on the projectile weight or based on projectile length? From what I recall, case volume, and therefore seating depth, which implies bullet length, makes a greater impact on pressure than weight. Is that your experience?

@GrumpyOlMan, I know you've been doing some handloading for the 5.7. What's your take. There are literally no published loads which list an monolithic all copper bullet so I have to sub based on either length or weight.

So far, weight is easy. Getting length specs from the manufacturer has been like pulling teeth. I finally got a reply from Fort Scott but they gave me the COAL for their loaded cartridge instead of the OAL for just the bullet. I'm trying again.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I finally got a reply from Fort Scott but they gave me the COAL for their loaded cartridge instead of the OAL for just the bullet. I'm trying again.

.6980 OAL for the bullet. Now if I can only get replies from Hornady and Sierra (and I found a published load for Speer too). Just gotta get them to respond.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Sorry Kirk, been out at the cabin for a while.

Sounds like more fun than working.

I believe that you'll find solid bullets tend to create more pressure

Thanks for the heads up. I think I've read that elsewhere as well.

so I'd use the low end of AA#7 for 45gn. Sierra spt. and work from there.

Cool. I've actually be seriously considering the Seirra SPT and #7 as my cup-n-core handload as well. I nearly bought some online today but Midway is out of stock at the moment. I'll likely pick up #7 from the LGS this week.

If I can use the same seating depth for both the Seirra SPT and the Fort Scott and find a powder charge they both like, that'd take some hassle out of handloading.

I'm assuming you're suggesting same seating depth?

You may want to pick up some moly spray and coat the contact area of the bullet to help reduce pressure. I'd also start with a small pistol instead of the small rifle primer. That may be unnecessary but better safe than sorry.

I'll have to try to find some. I hope my LGS has it. I prefer buying from them before getting it online.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Got my reply from Hornady:
"The 40 gr. V-Max is 0.684 and the 35 gr. V-Max is 0.517 in length. "

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Interesting bit of info. If you go to Outdoor Limited's site you'll see that Fiocchi is coming out with some new factory loads for the 5.7

From Fiocchi? I know that PSA will be releasing their own. They're claiming they'll release the FMJ for sale at SHOT. $0.50 / round. Self Defense loads from them will be V-MAX. But I currently carry the Speer Gold Dot loads.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

.6980 OAL for the bullet. Now if I can only get replies from Hornady and Sierra (and I found a published load for Speer too). Just gotta get them to respond.

Got my reply from Hornady:
"The 40 gr. V-Max is 0.684 and the 35 gr. V-Max is 0.517 in length. "

Someone over at Midway put a micrometer on the Sierra 45 gr. SPT. He measured a set of 5 and came up with: ".626, .625, .624, .627, and .625" ...so an averate of .625

off-site ref:

Sierra Varminter Bullets 22 Cal (224 Diameter) 45 Grain Spitzer Box of

Sierra Varminter Bullets deliver the performance and consistency needed in the demanding sport of varmint hunting. Lightly constructed to provide...

www.midwayusa.com

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

That makes sense, in my experience any time your dealing with soft point lead tips you're going to get variance. Those numbers aren't bad.

Not surprisingly, the Fort Scott bullets are longer than the longest of the cup-n-core.

I'm really looking hard at the Sierra SPT bullets. They're almost twice the price of the V-MAX but I think they're more likely to give me the performance I think I want. Sierra says they won't expand at the velocities that 5.7 will push but that's half of what I'm looking for.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Got the reply Sierra:

40gr Hornet has a nominal (drawing) length of 0.487”, the 45gr Hornet at 0.535”, and the SPT at 0.625” for twist rate calculations.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[lklawson]

There's the rub, do you want violent expansion with a rapid energy dump,

Not really. If I wanted the explosive expansion, I'd just stick with the V-MAX. The role I have for the 5.7 is not the standard EDC. It's for Church Safety Team. I want something that will push through II and IIIa. If I can get some expansion on top of that, that'd be great. But the initial penetration is more important. That's one of the nice things about the 5.7 Gold Dot. It'll do both. But I almost have to sell a kidney to buy any. That's why I'm interested in the Fort Scott monolithic (I think it can be loaded to penetrate and might tumble after) and why I'm disappointed that Speer doesn't seem to be selling their .224 40gr Gold Dot bullets to reloaders.

or something with more penetration.

More and more Active Killers are being reported to be wearing body armor. It's hard to say how many of them actually are, as opposed to them just wearing a tac vest and the media going into "bullet proof" hysterics, but clearly some are.

I think we can agree that the lighter the bullet, the quicker the energy will drop. Fiocchi had the near perfect balance with their 27gn hollow point with penetrator green tip bullet. That bullet didn't expand at all , would penetrate level lllA armor, then tumble. And it DID tumble creating a pretty massive wound channel for such a small bullet. It did not over penetrate though. That's been my guiding objective to come as close to that round as possible. It travelled at right around 2000fps. I've been reluctant to push the speed on these since I'm using used brass. I've seen some concerning pressure signs so I'm just playing safe for now until the day I can either get more of the red box green tips or virgin brass. I have some 32gn. Maker monolithic expanding (according to them) bullets that I'm going to try next. I also have 500 Dogtown 34gn hollow points that I've used before. They're actually pretty good on varmints. I've shot a few porcupine and one coyote with them.

And that's where I want to go with my results. But the light bullets for the Hodgdon published loads are all super thin jacket varmint offerings which I don't believe will penetrate. That's why I'm so interested in the thicker jacketed Sierra SPT, which won't explode into glitter after penetration, and the Fort Scott TUI, which looks like would probably be a good penetrator and is designed and intended to tumble.

I'm really going to have to break down and buy a chrono. I've been skating along on published data and estimates but I think I need it for this load development.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Why Ft.Scott? In common calibers they have not lived up to their claims in any way. They don't tumble etc. IIRC their accuracy is crap too.

Because I want something that has a reasonable chance of penetrating IIIa. As I stated from the first, the 5.7 is being primarily used for Church Safety carry and, unfortunately, more Active Killers are being reported as wearing Body Armor.

The Fort Scott bullets look like they have the right profile and look like they could possibly be pushed fast enough to penetrate. On top of that they're designed and intended to tumble after penetration, a function which (by most reports) is more likely to happen after passing a barrier such as Body Armor.

As for accuracy, I'm unlikely to be trying to engage at more than 100 yards with a handgun, even on church property, though 100 yards is a remote possibility. And, in case you haven't heard, most monolithic copper bullets suffer accuracy issues. It's a long standing issue for them. Copper just isn't as dense as lead. There's accurate and then there's accurate enough. Yeah, 0.5 MOA is definitely way more accurate than 3 MOA. But 3 MOA is still putting everything in a 3 inch circle at 100 and for this application, that's plenty good. Heck, for this application 5 MOA would probably be plenty good.

Let's just say that I've thought a lot about this because, well, it's me. "Hi, I'm Kirk, wait a bit while I over-think this..."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

100yd.s? I know the 5.7 has the ability with the V-max. I don't think your going to find any hand gun that will penetrate lllA body armor at that distance short of a S&W .460. ( Which still may not penetrate but will break a few ribs). I think a more realistic approach would be 50ft. ( Like the Texas Church Drill) . At any rate you may want to look into the Maker line of solids, some of which do penetrate llA at 7 yd.s.

I agree. I mentioned 100 yards to address Trashy's suggestion that the Fort Scott are inaccurate. My point being that, even if it might be true, I don't think that it matters at all at the distances I'm interested in.

The lllA vest I have at the club is pretty well shot up to get any kind of input from. I'm hoping one of our board members who's on SWAT can donate another one soon.
One of the issues I'm having is purchasing American Eagle and dismantling it to get virgin brass. Prices are just too crazy right now. I wonder what the ramifications would be if you took a hollow points and insert a penetrator in it. Not good I'd guess but that's what Fiocchi had with their 27gn green tips.

Yeah, I get it. And I wouldn't put a penetrator in the tip either.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

As an alternative to the cup and core this is Maker's 37gn bullet. I sent a question about what speed it will expand. I have the 43gn. bullets loaded with a fairly mild load that I plan on shooting into some gallon milk jugs @ 7 yd.s to see how they perform. The length on these is .58 by my calipers.

OK. I bought a box of 50.

HOLY MOTHER OF MERCY! UPS shipping estimate was $12 so I clicked OK. Actual shipping charges that UPS slammed on me is $21.25!!!! If I would have know that, I would have chosen the USPS, for $11 shipping.

I called up the phone number and was connected with Paul, the owner, who took my call despite being at lunch. He says this is is a new thing that UPS has started doing a few days ago and he can't control it and has no good way of changing my shipping to USPS or even canceling my order and refunding me. He promised to try do do something to "help" me out such as putting in some free product or something, but good night, my box of $28 dollar bullets turned into $50 in a blink of an eye. So, heads up, next time you order from them, use USPS not UPS.

If I were Paul, I would find it upsetting that I have so little control over my e-commerce options and I'd be looking for a different product/vendor.

Yet another reason why I really prefer buying local.

Go frag yourself UPS!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Sorry Kirk, been out at the cabin for a while. I believe that you'll find solid bullets tend to create more pressure so I'd use the low end of AA#7 for 45gn. Sierra spt. and work from there. You may want to pick up some moly spray and coat the contact area of the bullet to help reduce pressure. I'd also start with a small pistol instead of the small rifle primer. That may be unnecessary but better safe than sorry.

I'm considering using graphite spray lube instead. Thoughts?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Yeah, you must have missed the thread where I posted how UPS seized (rumors say destroyed a few too) thousands of firearms in transit and canceled hundreds of shipping contracts with manufacturers and dealers after they enacted newer, more strict, and extremely cost prohibitive shipping policies for firearms, parts, ammunition, receivers, suppressors, and even replicas.

I remember a podcast a little while back where UPS canceled or held a bunch of stuff from "ghost gun" sellers. I didn't recall them extending it to other stuff.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

YEOW , I'm sorry man that's a new one on me. If you called him right away and he told you that then it's BS. He should of been able to change the shipping. I would of told him I was disputing the charges on my credit card! If he wants to stay in business he better figure out how to at least warn people on his website! I'm going to write him and tell him so!
That REALLY pisses me off.

 

[lklawson]

I stopped using FedEx cause they screwed several shipments up on me. Now UPS? That sucks! If you're going to buy or sell a gun out of state Bud's gun shop has a service called Ship your gun that was very reasonable when sold a gun to a guy in Arizona from New York. They even insure it and will send you proper shipping materials if you don't have 'em. That being said, I don't know what carrier they're using so that may be a problem now too.

If I have to ship, I take it to a LGS and let them ship, they can ship legally through USPS and get a decent rate.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I've never tried graphite, When I worked in a Brass plant they used graphite in the cast shop and it was really nasty stuff. It might of been totally different then what you're talking about using so maybe someone that's used it before can chime in.

I'm concerned about the disulphide breaking down into sulfuric acid.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Today I received the 51st. edition of the Lyman reloading manual and It's disappointing as far as 5.7 info. In fact it doesn't have any more info. than the Western Powder reloading info. other than suggesting 800x powder and N340 can be used for the 35gn. and 40gn Vmax bullets. It shows no pressure readings and only those two and the 45sp (Speer) projectiles and still recommends AA#7 as the favored powder.

Thanks for letting me know.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[lklawson]

Smith and Wesson just entered the 5.7 market!

Cool. I started a new thread for it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk