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I'm a little surprised that Hornady doesn't because the V-VAX is one of the go-to bullets, listed in every data set that has loads for 5.7.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Nothing in the 10th or 11th either.
 

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Each, you must have a different book. My version doesn't even get to the different load data until after page 204
Mine is the 2013 reprint of the 2011 revised and reformatted edition. The 5.7 data is on page 495. The 17 Ackley Bee days is the first rifle load on page 159 after the basics.
 

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The first load is for the 17 Ackley bee

What page #?
It doesn't matter because it's the exact same info as Western powder's free load chart.
I told you it was the exact same data y'all had been talking about, which is why I didn't bother posting it until you told me it didn't exist...
 

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I told you it was the exact same data y'all had been talking about, which is why I didn't bother posting it until you told me it didn't exist...
Yeah I have a different version that I got online from scribed. The funny thing about your version is that it shows a much higher grain count on the powder than the Lyman which is unusual for Lee. They're usually pretty conservative. Your book is showing a start charge of aac #7 of 7.4gn.s, the Lyman book is showing a max, charge of 7.5 and a start of 6.7gn.s for the 35gn, Vmax.
 

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Yeah I have a different version that I got online from scribed. The funny thing about your version is that it shows a much higher grain count on the powder than the Lyman which is unusual for Lee. They're usually pretty conservative. Your book is showing a start charge of aac #7 of 7.4gn.s, the Lyman book is showing a max, charge of 7.5 and a start of 6.7gn.s for the 35gn, Vmax.
 

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Yeah I have a different version that I got online from scribed. The funny thing about your version is that it shows a much higher grain count on the powder than the Lyman which is unusual for Lee. They're usually pretty conservative. Your book is showing a start charge of aac #7 of 7.4gn.s, the Lyman book is showing a max, charge of 7.5 and a start of 6.7gn.s for the 35gn, Vmax.
I've noticed that as well over the years and comparing sources. Lee definitely keeps their data well south of spicy.

I've got the Sierra, Lee, and Hornady 9 hardcovers with Hornady 10 and 11 on the app and a "free" digital copy of the 12th when it comes out. I also have pictures of pages in older Lymans from a buddy. I do use the hell out of the free online data from the powder and projectile manufacturers. Hodgdon/IMR, Viht, Accurate, Nosler, Sierra, and Hornady are where I try to stay.

I'm still a relative novice at this stuff with only 10 years at the bench so reading a more seasoned opinion is always a good thing in my book.
 
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YEOW :oops: , I'm sorry man that's a new one on me. If you called him right away and he told you that then it's BS. He should of been able to change the shipping. I would of told him I was disputing the charges on my credit card! If he wants to stay in business he better figure out how to at least warn people on his website! I'm going to write him and tell him so!
That REALLY pisses me off.
So I promise to give you an update. Here's the update. Maker did absolutely nothing for me. I received the shipment today with the standard 50 bullets in it. They seem well made at a glance and they were packaged well. But I am pretty unhappy about the shipping.

I am specially unhappy that the e-commerce website told me that the shipping would be one thing but then when I ordered it was completely different. I did not have an option to accept or reject that shipping. After I placed the order that's when it figured up the real shipping and I was stuck with it. Then I could not cancel the order. Like at all. There was no option in the email they sent me to cancel and no option online to cancel. I called the phone number on the website immediately and was connected with the owners personal phone, as I reported above, and he told me that he basically had no control over the e-commerce site and what it showed for shipping or the actual shipping in the end nor any control over the ability to cancel orders. Sounds like a massively crappy e-commerce site vendor to me. Anyway,
he told me he would try to do something for me if he could get back to the shop before his guys shipped the package, most likely by adding in some additional product. He obviously did not do that. Whatever the case I am very unhappy. I will likely try to contact them one last time and give them the opportunity to make it right but at this point I am not sure I would ever use them again. I'm pretty steamed about the absolutely lousy purchase experience. Their product may be awesome and fantastic but the additional price tag that the irrevocable shipping left me has left a very sour taste in my mouth.


Peace favor your sword (mobile)
 
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So I promise to give you an update. Here's the update. Maker did absolutely nothing for me. I received the shipment today with the standard 50 bullets in it. They seem well made at a glance and they were packaged well. But I am pretty unhappy about the shipping.

I am specially unhappy that the e-commerce website told me that the shipping would be one thing but then when I ordered it was completely different. I did not have an option to accept or reject that shipping. After I placed the order that's when it figured up the real shipping and I was stuck with it. Then I could not cancel the order. Like at all. There was no option in the email they sent me to cancel and no option online to cancel. I called the phone number on the website immediately and was connected with the owners personal phone, as I reported above, and he told me that he basically had no control over the e-commerce site and what it showed for shipping or the actual shipping in the end nor any control over the ability to cancel orders. Sounds like a massively crappy e-commerce site vendor to me. Anyway,
he told me he would try to do something for me if he could get back to the shop before his guys shipped the package, most likely by adding in some additional product. He obviously did not do that. Whatever the case I am very unhappy. I will likely try to contact them one last time and give them the opportunity to make it right but at this point I am not sure I would ever use them again. I'm pretty steamed about the absolutely lousy purchase experience. Their product may be awesome and fantastic but the additional price tag that the irrevocable shipping left me has left a very sour taste in my mouth.


Peace favor your sword (mobile)
I did write him and tell him that he's not just losing your business and the bad word is now on three other sites. If he doesn't do anything, he's lost my business and a bunch of other people that are waiting for me to report back on how the bullets performed. I was planning on filming my version of the meat target with water filled gallon jugs to capture any that made it through once the weather warms up a bit. Luckily there are other companies out there
 

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@GrumpyOlMan so I just did some digging and the 2022 version of the Lee 2nd Ed is up to 692 pages, and my 2013 version only has 612. So there's an additional 80 pages of data in the newest version and every year they reprint they add new data. Might be interesting to see what's new...
 
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@GrumpyOlMan so I just did some digging and the 2022 version of the Lee 2nd Ed is up to 692 pages, and my 2013 version only has 612. So there's an additional 80 pages of data in the newest version and every year they reprint they add new data. Might be interesting to see what's new...
Thanks, I'll dig into it, I read that there were no plans for a third edition so I made the mistake of thinking there was only one 2nd edition.
 

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Thanks, I'll dig into it, I read that there were no plans for a third edition so I made the mistake of thinking there was only one 2nd edition.
There have been 10 2nd editions since the 2011 revision. My book doesn't have 45ACP data heavier than 230gr, but supposedly there is data up to 260gr in the 2022 edition.
 
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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
I opened my book and 5.7x28 is the very first pistol load in the book.

View attachment 77423
It almost perfectly matches the data from Brian Pearce's 5.7 article. Literally the only difference being the max for 45 gr. Jacketed and True Blue. Pearce's article tops it at 5.8 gr. of True Blue. Pearce specifically lists the 45 g. Seirra Hornet Softpoint.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
I did write him and tell him that he's not just losing your business and the bad word is now on three other sites. If he doesn't do anything, he's lost my business and a bunch of other people that are waiting for me to report back on how the bullets performed. I was planning on filming my version of the meat target with water filled gallon jugs to capture any that made it through once the weather warms up a bit. Luckily there are other companies out there
Here's what I wrote in to their support system. If I don't get a satisfactory response it will be basically what I post online as a review.

I am an unhappy customer. This is specifically because of misrepresented shipping and the inability to cancel an order once true shipping costs were known.​
On Jan 12, 2023 I ordered one 50-count order of 37 Grain .224 High Velocity Expanding Bullets. Your e-commerce website “estimated” $11 for USPS and $12 for UPS so I selected UPS. I was asked to verify UPS but the shipping estimate did not change. Only once I had committed to UPS was the true shipping costs revealed at more than double the “estimate” and coming to $21 and change. I immediately tried to change shipping or cancel the order because $21 is absurd for a few ounces of copper and moves me $28 purchase to $50. But there was NO WAY to cancel. Because I could not cancel online, I immediately tried calling the customer service number and Paul, the owner, picked up. I explained the issue and Paul told me that he has essentially no control over the e-commerce site, no ability to cancel or change, and apparently no ability to warn the online buyers of UPS’s dramatic price increase. Paul told me that “if he could get back to the shop before the order was shipped” he’d try to “do something” for me, hinting that he may include a bit of extra product as an apology. That would have been fine but it didn’t happen. On Jan. 17, the order arrived with the 50 count item and nothing else.​
Frankly, I’m steamed. I’ve never heard of an e-commerce site that wouldn’t let you cancel the order after shipping was disclosed and I haven’t seen an e-commerce site since the 90’s that wouldn’t let a customer cancel within a brief period.​
I am also shocked that, knowing that their customers were getting charged absurd rates for UPS (apparently I was not the first to complain) and the shortcomings of the e-commerce solution being used, that the solution or service provider has not been changed.​
I certainly don’t want to harm a pro-2A small business but I also don’t want to be taken advantage of or be given platitudes and excuses.​
I want to give Maker a chance to help make this right. Please email me or text/phone and I'm sure we can work this out.​
Thank you,​
Kirk Lawson​

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Here's what I wrote in to their support system. If I don't get a satisfactory response it will be basically what I post online as a review.

I am an unhappy customer. This is specifically because of misrepresented shipping and the inability to cancel an order once true shipping costs were known.​
On Jan 12, 2023 I ordered one 50-count order of 37 Grain .224 High Velocity Expanding Bullets. Your e-commerce website “estimated” $11 for USPS and $12 for UPS so I selected UPS. I was asked to verify UPS but the shipping estimate did not change. Only once I had committed to UPS was the true shipping costs revealed at more than double the “estimate” and coming to $21 and change. I immediately tried to change shipping or cancel the order because $21 is absurd for a few ounces of copper and moves me $28 purchase to $50. But there was NO WAY to cancel. Because I could not cancel online, I immediately tried calling the customer service number and Paul, the owner, picked up. I explained the issue and Paul told me that he has essentially no control over the e-commerce site, no ability to cancel or change, and apparently no ability to warn the online buyers of UPS’s dramatic price increase. Paul told me that “if he could get back to the shop before the order was shipped” he’d try to “do something” for me, hinting that he may include a bit of extra product as an apology. That would have been fine but it didn’t happen. On Jan. 17, the order arrived with the 50 count item and nothing else.​
Frankly, I’m steamed. I’ve never heard of an e-commerce site that wouldn’t let you cancel the order after shipping was disclosed and I haven’t seen an e-commerce site since the 90’s that wouldn’t let a customer cancel within a brief period.​
I am also shocked that, knowing that their customers were getting charged absurd rates for UPS (apparently I was not the first to complain) and the shortcomings of the e-commerce solution being used, that the solution or service provider has not been changed.​
I certainly don’t want to harm a pro-2A small business but I also don’t want to be taken advantage of or be given platitudes and excuses.​
I want to give Maker a chance to help make this right. Please email me or text/phone and I'm sure we can work this out.​
Thank you,​
Kirk Lawson​

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
👍👍👍👍👍
 

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If you like the way the bullet performs but don't want to deal with that asshat again, There are several other companies out there with similar bullets. One that I've dealt with is Cuttuing Edge Bullets. They advertise $12 shipping on anything under $400. Over is free (it dam well should be!). I have an order of their 32gn. bullets but haven't loaded those yet.
 
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