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This ^^^100%

What other amendments require training or checks so the average person can exercise those rights?? None.
A rule of thumb for me is basically 2 types of people favor restrictions liberals and military/LEO that dont like to share the same level of rights. Its a them vs me situation. They say they fight for the constitution and the American people but do they if its okay for them and not the average person. I'm not saying this fits you but I've see it everyday

Training does help people and I encourage it. But on that note. We've all seen people all trained up and still a shit show. Like Kirk points out. Even so called skilled individuals can be a shit show. The horror stories most of us have are proof of that.
One: Not a Liberal
Two: I am LEO/A and Military
Three: I LOVE seeing people armed, Civilian and Non
Four: I carry my weapon as part of my job. For me it's a "duty", not a "right". You have a "right" to carry.
Five: It is NOT a Us vs Them thing.
Six: Ive seen plenty of "trained professionals" act unprofessionally with their weapon. We cant fix stupid BUT I can go back into their training record and say: "Did you read this, did you go to this class, is this your signature...right here...saying that you received training and that you know that you're not supposed to twirl your PISTOL on the GD RANGE like your Tex from The Old West?!?!?!?!?!?" "Now, youre gonna get written up, dismissed, demoted...etc".

Please see my response here, somewhere about my In Laws shooting at some kid, trespassing, in their residential area, after he'd had a few "adult beverages" and didn't know that, THAT was illegal....he never had anyone tell him that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Personally, I'd prefer a "National Constitutional Carry". I only want a "safety and legal brief". Not a pass/fail, go/no-go course. I just want people to get checked off that they understand their responsibilities. It is a freedom thing. I just want to keep people out of jail. Not like my in laws. They thought that they could shoot at someone trespassing on their property (luckily missed). When I informed them that it was NOT legal to just rip rounds off in a residential area...their answer..."I didn't know that". Didn't know that they were breaking the law carrying their pistol into a church, couldn't drink in a bar with it in their pocket or roll into a Govt Building armed. I just wanna keep people out of jail, the hospital or the cemetery.

What would have happened to them if they had hit that kid trespassing (hit the dirt, they cant shoot straight THANK GOD). Forgot that he'd been drinking before the incident too.

Yep, I want safety classes because of them.
As a person that teaches people that don’t really want to know the things being taught, and teaches those things for living, your classes will NOT stop those same people you are concerned about, from saying that “they didn’t know that”.

I get that you want people to have a clue. So do I.

But your classes won’t do that, they are going to end up being completely CYA BS for someone to point at and say, look, this isn’t good enough, we need more laws!

Plus, there’s liability attached. By having us sign off on a safety briefing, they are certifying that we are safe. They can now be sued if their training isn’t sufficient, and they can now deny carry if you DON’T or WON’T get the briefing.
 
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Six: Ive seen plenty of "trained professionals" act unprofessionally with their weapon. We cant fix stupid BUT I can go back into their training record and say: "Did you read this, did you go to this class, is this your signature...right here...saying that you received training and that you know that you're not supposed to twirl your PISTOL on the GD RANGE like your Tex from The Old West?!?!?!?!?!?" "Now, youre gonna get written up, dismissed, demoted...etc
^^^^ THIS

Up until September of last year, i was a civilian employee at the Sheriffs office (was IT/Project manager at our county jail).

We have never had any issues at the range we go to when im there with my friends or family. We all respect the firearms, practice safety and keep a close eye on each person operating a firearm to assure they are handling it safely, and observe all the rules and regulations set by the range officers there.

The ONE TIME i went there with one of our Sergeants, we all get kicked off the range . . because despite the big ass sign in huge bold letters that say "NO RAPID FIRE" . . . he grabs his AR and starts firing that thing like hes shooting into a crowd of zombies.

its the only time i have ever been kicked off a range.
 

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As a person that teaches people that don’t really want to know the things being taught, and teaches those things for living, your classes will NOT stop those same people you are concerned about, from saying that “they didn’t know that”.

I get that you want people to have a clue. So do I.

But your classes won’t do that, they are going to end up being completely CYA BS for someone to point at and say, look, this isn’t good enough, we need more laws!

Plus, there’s liability attached. By having us sign off on a safety briefing, they are certifying that we are safe. They can now be sued if their training isn’t sufficient, and they can now deny carry if you DON’T or WON’T get the briefing.
So, because people will ignore things taught them, we should ask for no training? It is CYA BS. As a Society, we have to do this because people are not getting any smarter or responsible. After teaching, for a brief 27 years as well, I have seen this. We don't need more laws. We need to enforce ones that we have. However, we can at least offer/require a minimum standard of training before using a item that will get them and others injured, killed or imprisoned. I am looking at the "lowest common denominator". I have trained Soldiers and Military Police (who are a cross section of The US Population) that do not know when they can use force, including deadly force. I am even more confident that the "untrained" Civilian Population needs that kind of training too so that THEY know the law.

No, by signing off that they have been briefed and trained on the law and safety we (Society) put the responsibility on the person. I'm okay with nothing more than giving the copies (maybe in a booklet) with city, county and state laws and firearm safety. "I didn't know" is not a defense. I had a friend in Illinois look at me dumbfounded and argue with me; when I told him that his "green card" (pot license) did not allow him to bring pot, in his car, with his kids in it, through Wisconsin and into Minnesota. I said that him bringing the pot across two state lines, endangered his personal freedom (that's a good way to get locked up) and his kids put into the Foster Care System.

"But I have my Green Card!?" was his excuse. He didn't believe me so, he spoke to his attorney. He was told to NEVER do that again. He just got educated, he just got TRAINING. Had have he known, he might not have done that.

Much like my training/safety briefing thoughts. Had have people KNOWN that they couldn't have shot at people trespassing on their property, late at night, not identifying their target and ripping several rounds off in a residential area, after they had had several drinks at a local bar AND brought their "Constitutional Carry" pistol into the bar; my In Laws may have made a better decision and not said..."I didn't know that".

Say what you want, you cannot change my mind on this. I will leave it up to the reader. Make your own decision. Doom on you, if you fail.
 

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^^^^ THIS

Up until September of last year, i was a civilian employee at the Sheriffs office (was IT/Project manager at our county jail).

We have never had any issues at the range we go to when im there with my friends or family. We all respect the firearms, practice safety and keep a close eye on each person operating a firearm to assure they are handling it safely, and observe all the rules and regulations set by the range officers there.

The ONE TIME i went there with one of our Sergeants, we all get kicked off the range . . because despite the big ass sign in huge bold letters that say "NO RAPID FIRE" . . . he grabs his AR and starts firing that thing like hes shooting into a crowd of zombies.

its the only time i have ever been kicked off a range.
Everyone respected each other and the rules. The ONE person that didn't probably did so because the rules are for everyone but me. The Rules are for Thee and NOT for Me. I have seen this for the brief 27 (almost) years of service to this Nation. The one twirling their pistol was actually my Command SGT Major.

Here's are my questions: What was the punishment to the Deputy? Barred from shooting there? Picture put up on The Wall of Shame? Privately shunned? He was briefed (cant fix stupid) what was the punishment?
 

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^^^^ THIS

Up until September of last year, i was a civilian employee at the Sheriffs office (was IT/Project manager at our county jail).

We have never had any issues at the range we go to when im there with my friends or family. We all respect the firearms, practice safety and keep a close eye on each person operating a firearm to assure they are handling it safely, and observe all the rules and regulations set by the range officers there.

The ONE TIME i went there with one of our Sergeants, we all get kicked off the range . . because despite the big ass sign in huge bold letters that say "NO RAPID FIRE" . . . he grabs his AR and starts firing that thing like hes shooting into a crowd of zombies.

its the only time i have ever been kicked off a range.
Everyone respected each other and the rules. The ONE person that didn't probably did so because the rules are for everyone but me. The Rules are for Thee and NOT for Me. I have seen this for the brief 27 (almost) years of service to this Nation. The one twirling their pistol was actually my Command SGT Major.

Here's are my questions: What was the punishment to the Deputy? Barred from shooting there? Picture put up on The Wall of Shame? Privately shunned? He was briefed (cant fix stupid) what was the punishment?
 

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Here's are my questions: What was the punishment to the Deputy? Barred from shooting there? Picture put up on The Wall of Shame? Privately shunned? He was briefed (cant fix stupid) what was the punishment?
it was a public shooting range, so there was really no other consequences other then him getting the entire group kicked out and us hanging our heads in embarrassment.

to this day, he tells that story like its a joke and i find nothing funny about it
 

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it was a public shooting range, so there was really no other consequences other then him getting the entire group kicked out and us hanging our heads in embarrassment.

to this day, he tells that story like its a joke and i find nothing funny about it

Uh no. It's not funny. I agree with you. It'd be the last time that I went shooting with that person.
 

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So, because people will ignore things taught them, we should ask for no training? It is CYA BS. As a Society, we have to do this because people are not getting any smarter or responsible. After teaching, for a brief 27 years as well, I have seen this. We don't need more laws. We need to enforce ones that we have. However, we can at least offer/require a minimum standard of training before using a item that will get them and others injured, killed or imprisoned. I am looking at the "lowest common denominator". I have trained Soldiers and Military Police (who are a cross section of The US Population) that do not know when they can use force, including deadly force. I am even more confident that the "untrained" Civilian Population needs that kind of training too so that THEY know the law.

No, by signing off that they have been briefed and trained on the law and safety we (Society) put the responsibility on the person. I'm okay with nothing more than giving the copies (maybe in a booklet) with city, county and state laws and firearm safety. "I didn't know" is not a defense. I had a friend in Illinois look at me dumbfounded and argue with me; when I told him that his "green card" (pot license) did not allow him to bring pot, in his car, with his kids in it, through Wisconsin and into Minnesota. I said that him bringing the pot across two state lines, endangered his personal freedom (that's a good way to get locked up) and his kids put into the Foster Care System.

"But I have my Green Card!?" was his excuse. He didn't believe me so, he spoke to his attorney. He was told to NEVER do that again. He just got educated, he just got TRAINING. Had have he known, he might not have done that.

Much like my training/safety briefing thoughts. Had have people KNOWN that they couldn't have shot at people trespassing on their property, late at night, not identifying their target and ripping several rounds off in a residential area, after they had had several drinks at a local bar AND brought their "Constitutional Carry" pistol into the bar; my In Laws may have made a better decision and not said..."I didn't know that".

Say what you want, you cannot change my mind on this. I will leave it up to the reader. Make your own decision. Doom on you, if you fail.
Yes, people "should" get training. No, it should not be mandatory. Ever. Recommend it all you want. Sounds good, I know that I do. Pay for "public service announcements" which warn of the consequences of not having training. Sounds great and apparently they're not all that expensive. Heck you could give free training classes (I do).

But I have a serious problem with requiring it legally, for all the reasons I've already stated.

If you think that training is that important, then do what I do. Figure out a way to encourage people to get it that doesn't force them too or, at least doesn't cost them money they may not have. My buddy and I offer Ohio State compliant CCW classes (because the State House doofuses made training required) and we do it for donations. We tell the folks what most instructors charge so they have an idea of what the average is, then we tell them that we do it for donations. If they want to give us the same money (or more) than the average, that's great. If they can't afford to give us that much, then whatever they can afford. If they can't afford anything, then they get the class for free. Last week, we ran a gent through the class who didn't donate anything (he was retired and on a fixed income). He shot my gun and my ammo and paid nothing. Because it was more important to me that he get the training then that I "get paid." And it's far from the first time I've done so.

You could do the same thing. If you're not already certified as an instructor by your State/local LEO organization (OPOTA here in Ohio), then the NRA or USCCA (or even Pink Pistols) will do it. You can give training classes to your heart's content. If you don't have time to do that, then you can donate to a training organization like FASTER-Ohio, NRA, or something else. Heck, if you wanted to send me $75, you could "sponsor" a student. ;)

My point is that required training = bad, unconstitutional, failing to achieve desired goals, ripe for abuse, and (in the end) not worth the squeeze.
Voluntary training = good.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Purely legal. What constitutes "self defense", whats gonna get you locked up, where you can and cannot carry, what you can and cannot carry. Then some kind of "safety" class.

We have the same kind of requirements for driving, which more people use and is more dangerous than any weapon that I've seen used.

Who comes up with the requirements? You, your local PD/Sheriffs Depts/State Troopers/The NRA, get a list together of what they'd like to see in a "safety course" then have your Legislators vote on it.

Can there be abuses, yes. However we don't just have nothing because the "system" could be abused.

My opinion and opinions, are like butt holes...everyone has one and they all stink.
Driving is a privilege, not a Right.

Before the 1968 gun control act, I could walk into the local K-Mart and buy a brick of .22's for $5.15.
At 12 years of age.
We'd meet up and go shoot rats White Oak Bayou.

eldar
 

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One's parent or Guardian or senior person or youth group like the Boy Scouts taught the youth of yesteryear how to handle firearms safely.

eldar
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
So, because people will ignore things taught them, we should ask for no training? It is CYA BS. As a Society, we have to do this because people are not getting any smarter or responsible. After teaching, for a brief 27 years as well, I have seen this. We don't need more laws. We need to enforce ones that we have. However, we can at least offer/require a minimum standard of training before using a item that will get them and others injured, killed or imprisoned. I am looking at the "lowest common denominator". I have trained Soldiers and Military Police (who are a cross section of The US Population) that do not know when they can use force, including deadly force. I am even more confident that the "untrained" Civilian Population needs that kind of training too so that THEY know the law.

No, by signing off that they have been briefed and trained on the law and safety we (Society) put the responsibility on the person. I'm okay with nothing more than giving the copies (maybe in a booklet) with city, county and state laws and firearm safety. "I didn't know" is not a defense. I had a friend in Illinois look at me dumbfounded and argue with me; when I told him that his "green card" (pot license) did not allow him to bring pot, in his car, with his kids in it, through Wisconsin and into Minnesota. I said that him bringing the pot across two state lines, endangered his personal freedom (that's a good way to get locked up) and his kids put into the Foster Care System.

"But I have my Green Card!?" was his excuse. He didn't believe me so, he spoke to his attorney. He was told to NEVER do that again. He just got educated, he just got TRAINING. Had have he known, he might not have done that.

Much like my training/safety briefing thoughts. Had have people KNOWN that they couldn't have shot at people trespassing on their property, late at night, not identifying their target and ripping several rounds off in a residential area, after they had had several drinks at a local bar AND brought their "Constitutional Carry" pistol into the bar; my In Laws may have made a better decision and not said..."I didn't know that".

Say what you want, you cannot change my mind on this. I will leave it up to the reader. Make your own decision. Doom on you, if you fail.
Baloney.

“...we should ask for no training?”
Ummmmm. No. I didn’t say that. Didn’t suggest that. No idea where you got that from.
It’s “we should NOT REQUIRE training.“. You can’t change my mind on this either.

“We don't need more laws.” Yet....you want a law that requires training, or that one sign a silly document? Make up yer mind. Or is it just a voluntary thing? Kind of like the stupid included trigger locks with every gun sold.

“No, by signing off that they have been briefed and trained on the law and safety we (Society) put the responsibility on the person.”
Baloney. That responsibility already exists, and is already on the individual. Signing a paper doesn’t change that, nor make it a more real thing.

Sorry, I agree with your idea that training is an excellent idea. But there is NO WAY to do that, without restricting rights.
It’s “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
It doesn’t say, “as long as they sign off that they were briefed or read a pamphlet.”
 

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So the Utah Constitutional carry law went into effect 5 days ago....and the streets are still relatively bloodless. In fact, more people have died of the vaccine, than from carry guns.

Who'da thunk it!
If there was blood in the streets it would be from all the wokes, commie/leftists bleeding form their assholes.
 
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