7.62x25/.30 Tokarev.... An economical choice?

Discussion in 'Vintage Topic Archive (Sept - 2009)' started by neothespian, Mar 12, 2008.

  1. neothespian

    neothespian Member

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    I've been looking at several states of my collection and have been comparing the numbers on various guns to add to the collection. I originally had my eye on a PA-63 as the immediate next addition to my collection, but couldn't buy one at the same time I bought my SKS. Good thing I didn't since one of the bikes suffered an ancient carburetor hemorage and needs a rebuild :roll:

    But, in doing my signature overzealous research, I began to notice an interesting development. The Makarov ammo for the 9mm is still a decent price and I still love the look, but I kept seeing that darned Mosin-Nagant revolver popping up on the site. It's a sharp little vintage revolver, and you can't beat a cheap wheelgun: They don't jam and they're easy to repair! So, I take a look at the ammo costs and expect to see some astronomical price that everyone keeps complaining about....

    WRONG!!! With J and G bulk ammo (The only way I buy these days aside from 9mm), I spend HALF of what my .40 S&W costs! When you can buy a tin of 800 rounds for 80 bucks, it averages out pretty decent, AND you also get all that brass to go with it. Needless to say I was shocked.

    My question is: What IS the power of a 7.62x25? How many of the Tokarev variants use the the same ammo? Also, I noticed there is a company pressing new rounds in this caliber. Is the rumors of the total demise of this pistol round greatly exaggerated? I'm not looking for it to replace my C9 as my carry, but if the caliber is so cheap and I apply my signature anal retentive nature to the storage of this ammo, I very well might sell my HP .40 S&W for a decent price and buy BOTH the PA-63 at $100 and the Mosin Nagant revolver and still have cash for a little ammo!

    Any thoughts on this caliber and it's history?
     
  2. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're asking. All variants of the Soviet TT33 pistol were made in the 7.62X25, but other calibers--notably 9mm Parabellum--were also sometimes produced. The surplus 7.62X25 is really cheap right now and I don't find it overly corrosive. I always make it a point to clean the same day when firing corrosive ammo and my Tokarev has had no problem.

    The Nagant Revolver uses a 7.62X39R (R=rimmed) cartridge that costs $26 for 50 from J&G:

    http://www.jgsales.com/product_info...50-round-boxes-/cPath/25_305/products_id/1572

    The cartridge is not very powerful (I've seen it compared to a .32 long), but its 'gas-seal' patent makes it historically interesting. The revolver is pretty expensive to shoot. At $200 from J&G the Romanian TT33 copies are OK but I don't like the safety added for import.

    The bottleneck 7.62X25 pistol round is very fast, has great penetration, and is NOT known for its great knockdown power. But, the 9Makarov cartridge is only about 10% more powerful than a .380.

    I own both the Tokarev and the PA-63; I've looked at the Nagant revolver off and on for years, but ammo comes and goes. If you buy the revolver, carefully consider ammo cost and lay in a supply. If I bought the revolver, I'd also invest in a .32 ACP cylinder to go with it. But .32 ACP ammo is both anemic and expensive.

    Some people never sell their guns--I sell mine whenever I get tired of them. I've owned well over 300 different guns in my lifetime, and the only way I could have played with that many is because I sold them to use the money to buy others. You have to decide what your own priorities are.

    There's my reply, hope it has some value to it. Remember, on the internet things are usually worth what they cost! :roll:
     

  3. neothespian

    neothespian Member

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    I think I was looking at the wrong ammo for the pistol :oops: Boy I feel like a schmuck! It's a hair over .50 a round!! Well, there IS the .32 conversion.

    But at least I got my Tokarev info! That helps with another pistol I was comparing...
     
  4. The Tokarev is a hell of a pistol too. Armour piercing and all that... Great gun. I would like to own one someday.
     
  5. I thought about buying one of those Nagant revolvers and swapping in a .32 ACP conversion cylinder. But after buying the gun and the cylinder, then having to tool up for reloading, bullet casting, finding brass, etc., I found it more economical to just stick with the C9 pistol. If you're looking for economy in ammo and reloading, 9mm is probably about as cheap as ammo gets. If you're looking for nostalgic cartridges to shoot only occasionally, then take your pick. I may still buy a Nagant revolver eventually, just for shats and gaggles.

    wizard93
     
  6. I have a CZ52 that shoots the 7.62x25 ammo and it is a very fast round, is a .30 caliber, and will penetrate like you would not believe.

    A while back I saw a video where a guy shot a Kelvar helmet with the common rounds 9mm, 38 spcl, .45 etc and from the distance he was shooting none of the rounds actually penetrated the helmet. The only one that did was the 7.62x25.

    But, as we have discussed in another thread about FMJ knock down power, it will put a neat little .30 caliber hole through a person and keep going unless you hit something major for example the heart or spine to cause damage
     
  7. You have a lot of confusion listed here and some of these replies are confused as well.

    1. The 7.62x25 is a .30 caliber round. It is a very fast, and hot round. It is not technically armor piercing, however it can penetrate a level 2 vest.

    2. The TT33 and the CZ52 are chambered in 7.62x25. Both are excellent firearms. IMO the TT33 is more rugged and there are no know brittle firing pin issues. The CZ52 is a great design and highly advanced for its age. Never dry fire it though as it will snap the firing pin.

    3. The M/N revolver is a 7.62x38r and is highly different that the well known 7.62x39. Don't confuse the two.

    4. 7.62x38 us rather pricey ammo, but there are ways around it. The Mosin revolver will chamber .32 S&W long as well as .32 S&W Magnum without any problem. The issue with shooting these rounds is that the typical cylinder in the revolver is longer that the S&W rounds. This results in a loss of power as the gases escape easier.

    5. There is a .32 replacement cylinder that relieves the loss of gasses, but some debate it is real necessary.

    6. I would not recommend a M/N revolver for any type of self defense if you own a C-9. The HP can handle the +P loads in the 9mm which are almost on par ballistically with the .40.

    7. Using the 7.62x25 as a CCW pistol is interesting. The problem with it is penetration. It will go straight through the human body resulting in major over penetration. This is a highly debated topic about this round. It was designed to penetrate a soldier's gear (long before they wore body armor). I never recommend carrying a FMJ as a self defense round unless you have a .45 or larger. You want the bullet to stop and mushroom, not pass through. The majority of 7.62x25 ammo available is FMJ surplus that is corrosive. I think if you could find a quality hollow point, it could be a good CCW gun but more testing needs to be done.

    8. My next gun will be a TT33. Cheap to shoot, accurate, reliable, proven in war, and quality.
     
  8. Ari

    Ari Guest

    Do not fire Czec 7.62x25 ammo in your t-33 as it will blow it up... The CZ-52 will take a hotter round. The Czecs made their ammo hotter so the USSR could not come clear out their armories without blowing up their t-33's

    If you are looking for something for carry make it 9mm
     
  9. I saw a pic of a CZ52 that had a major blow up from some hot 7.62x25 submachine gun ammo.

    Those pistols are made like a tank and the pic showed it blown to heck around the chamber and slide area.

    Seems like I remember that the ammo came in pinkish colored boxes. Its been a while since I saw the article, could be wrong about that.

    I really like my CZ52, it reminds you of what a MN pistol would be like if they ever made one when you shoot it :) Loud as heck and a decent fireball for a pistol
     
  10. Could you please document this with a reputable article or citation? For every 1 person who says the tt33 is weaker, another says the cz52 is weaker. do you have a solid source? I don't know who to believe.
     
  11. Silicon Wolverine

    Silicon Wolverine Well-Known Member

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    its not that the gun is weak, its the ammo is extra hot for the SMG's. It was never designed to fire in the pistols.

    SW
     
  12. Actually there is a debate on which gun is weaker. The strengths of the barrels and chambers seem to be very different according what I have read. By saying one gun may be weaker, I am not saying that one gun is weak. It just had different specs than the other gun.
     
  13. Ari

    Ari Guest

    I have been studying and collecting military firearms for a long time. My Library is vast it is in one of my books but to tell you what one I can't. But I will see what I can dig up. I have handled and fired both... And I got to tell ya the tt33 does not feel as strong. But like I said I will go diggen and see what I can find for info
     
  14. Ari

    Ari Guest

  15. Ok so the CZ52 was actually designed for the very purpose of using the hotter round by incorporating the rolling system to help absorb the recoil, and well as beefing up on some of the parts. That is what I have gathered from the reading that I have just done.
     
  16. urotu

    urotu Member

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    I really like my CZ52 and would reccommend it to anyone who asked about it.

    Penetration is what we are after most of the time, as "knock-down" power is a fallacy, there is no such thing. A round will not and cannot knock you down, but it will penetrate and that's what kills you, wound channel.

    7.62x25 is a very powerful round for what it is, although the caliber is small compared to other handgun rounds (about .30), it's muzzle velocity is very fast, especially for a pistol. Factory loads average about 1500 FPS and I have read about guys who load for theirs and get up to around 2000 FPS. Factory loads have been known to penetrate up to calss two body armor.

    I bought the CZ as a addition because of the odd caliber. We have 9mm, I own .380, and was after a Makarov, but decidde on the CZ. It's not "just another 9".

    As far as the bad ammo out there, it's a Bulgarian milsurp and the markings are as follows:

    12 o'clock a star

    3 o'clock a 10

    6 o'clock a 52

    9 o'clock a 3

    This ammo is known to overpressure and blow up the gun Many folks think there isn't anymore out there, but I ran across some at the last gunshow I was out about 6 months ago.
     
  17. Whiskey

    Whiskey Guest

    The cz52 has a fixed, cast iron firing pin...
     
  18. Sorry, the firing pin is not fixed, it is moves forwared to strike the primer by the hammer when the trigger is pulled.

    The factory firing pins can be brittle, it is always a good idea to have at least one for a spare, or a aftermarket one made of a less brittle metal.
     
  19. urotu

    urotu Member

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    Factory firing pins are brittle as they are cast metal.

    I bought an aftermarket machined firing pin for mine for about $18. I also bought a set of hardened rollers. Makes a sweet little shooter.

    I'd still reccomend the CZ to any enthusiast. With a set of grips and a few other goodies I have a gun that's all mine for much less than a 1911. I know it's no .45, but the x25 sure does have a bite.
     
  20. I totally agree. They are a great pistol and the round is nothing to shrug your shoulders at.