9 over .40? Sometimes money is the reason for policy.

Discussion in 'General Firearms Discussion' started by ajole, Jun 28, 2014.

  1. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    I was talking to my local state police boss about guns. He said Utah State Police is going to the Glock 17 instead of the 22, mostly due to cost of ammo, higher capacity, and lastly because...most newer hires aren't gun guys. They can't handle the .40 good enough!

    So much for gov't entities always getting "the best".:rolleyes:

    Crazy world. On the plus side, Glock 22 buy backs will be available. On the minus side, not many, as the cops can buy their old duty guns at about $350, but our price will be $400-$450. In fact, this guy said he asked about getting some one else's newer gun than his, as his night sights were fading, and instead, he got a new 34 with night sights and 3 mags for $399 from the supplier.:rolleyes:

    He also mentioned a new idea in malfunction response. Instead of "tap rack bang", it's now "tap rack reassess", as in, you aren't shot yet, so make sure the time you spent fixing it hasn't changed the situation and put unintended targets in the picture.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
  2. I can understand that. In the real world, there's not a lot of difference between the .40 and 9mm. I've shot my sons JCP-40 and really like the .40 S&W cartridge. Oddly, the FBI started with the 10mm, but found the recoil a bit much for most trainees, so they helped develop the .40 S&W. The goal is always rounds on target - if you can't shoot accurately and quickly, nothing else matters that much. That was one advantage of the M9 over the 1911, the Beretta was easier to shoot and held more rounds. (Aside from the large grip on the M9, which those with small hands found awkward.) Good or bad, practical matters always dictate weapons choices and usage. ;)
     

  3. I don't think that shoot ability was the reason for the switch. 1911 is one of the sweetest shooting pistols made. IIRC it was to switch to a reliable handgun with a DA/SA over just a SA semi auto. Originally the S&W model 39 was developed for the Army, but was not picked.

    The M9 was picked had a lot to do with reliability during testing. Considering the number of women now in the military I would not be surprised if the military switches again to a sidearm with a poly frame so the grip would be more narrow for smaller hands.
     
  4. The reason for the military switch from the 1911 was Congress, they decided the 1911 and the several other handguns the various services used were too old and expensive to keep repairing. They mandated a new double action pistol in 9mm (the NATO standard) with at least a 13 rd magazine. Reason for wanting a DA? This was the dawning of the era of the "Wundernine", added safety for the inexperienced personnel was likely a factor. Testing started in 1979 by the USAF, who declared the Beretta the winner. The Army objected, complaining the tests were not up to real life Army useage and they started their own test in 1981, finding NONE of the submitted pistols passed. Seems they liked their 1911s and didn't want to give them up.

    Congress responded by cutting off all $$$ for .45 ammo and parts and eventually the testing began again with more realistic standards. All but one passed the reliability tests but by the time testing was concluded several pistols had failed the other tests or had been withdrawn by the manufacturer. That left Beretta and Sig as the only choices, now it came down to cost. Beretta won because they already had a US plant and could bid lower than SIG, who would have had to build a US plant to meet contract obligations. There was also a rumor Italy threw in a US military base we wanted to put in Italy as part of the deal, but who knows?

    Of course the losing manufacturers sued saying the tests were unfair, so a few years later the whole process started again when more sidearms were needed. Beretta won again. Which kinda begs the question, if one of the reasons for switching in the first place was to go from 20 or so different sidearms to a single one, why open up the competition again? Eventually the SIG was adopted in limited numbers as the M11, again negating one of the reasons for the switch, along with special units using Glocks now. And now the M9 is supposedly at the worn out point like the 1911s were, so now we have the new "Modular Handgun System" trials coming up, which replaced the failed "Joint Combat Pistol" program almost a decade ago...

    Lots of LEOs are switching back to 9mm these days, cost of ammo and cops who shoot poorly with the .40 round are two of the reasons. The .40 is kind of a solution looking for a problem. It only exists because the FBI had a poor experience with their 10mms, not because it does anything much better than other calibers. Often called a "compromise" between 9mm and .45, like most compromises no one wins. With modern bullet technology the 9mm is damn close to it in effectiveness.
     
  5. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member

    ImageUploadedByHi-Point Forum1403999784.432948.jpg
    I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear those aspersions cast upon the .40...... Harumph!!!!!
     
  6. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    Dayum dude, you need your corrective eye wear again.
    You are looking like a BULL terrier... ;)
     
  7. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member


    That's my look of astonishment..
    Here's my look of disgust ImageUploadedByHi-Point Forum1404001824.201845.jpg
     
  8. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    Astonishment & Disgustment :D

    likes for Mr. Bull!
     
  9. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    The DHS guy I know carries a 9. I know it's a Glock, forget which one. It's one of the ones that holds the double stack. He figures he'd rather have 17 rounds (whichever it is) of 9 vs. say 8-10 of .40.

    He's been in live fire situations before. Can't say I can find fault with is logic.
     
  10. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    G17 holds 17 rounds, the supplied mag with the G19 holds 15 rounds. But so does the G22...

    Here's a link! http://eu.glock.com/english/magazines_compat.htm
    [​IMG]
     
  11. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    Interesting, thanks
     
  12. Back2School

    Back2School Member

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    Hmmm, my M&P .40 holds 15.

    17 vs 15 would not be a big deal to me. 17 vs 8-10 would be.
     
  13. geekandwife

    geekandwife Good ole Boy Member

    But then when you start adding in other mags as backup, 2 17 round mags as backup now give you a 6 round capacity increase over the other. That is the same round count in many back up guns or a standard revolver.
     
  14. ArmyScout

    ArmyScout Supporting Member

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    I have shot 9mm, .40, 10mm and .45acp. If I was to go bigger than a 9mm I would go with the .45 and not even blink an eye going past a .40.
     
  15. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    Interesting. I'm going to have to look into that :D

    I went 40 because it is easier to fidn and cheaper than .45.
     
  16. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    Then you have got to know that 10mm is KING!
    :D
     
  17. ArmyScout

    ArmyScout Supporting Member

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    I bought a new S&W Sigma 10mm, in either '98 or '99, (don't remember for sure if it was a "V" or "F", but I think it was a "V") and sold it in '03. It had a terrible grip safety & heavy trigger, and the ammo was expensive even back then. Went back to the ole trusty 9mm and haven't looked back since. It did have some recoil. Doubt I could take it at my age now.
     
  18. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    Sonny Boy has a G20, comped barrel, and it is still a "handful" but I bet you could take that, in the standard loads. Full Boat Loads? I have not tried that.
    But overall, it is a BEAST! And it gets the energy on target, if the shooter
    does his part. It is a great Wild Game Side Arm, but I'm sure you knew that.
    "For the Folks at Home!"
     
  19. Not2ManyGuns

    Not2ManyGuns Member

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    Funny video, especially the shrink part.

    He says, "... different types of people based on the caliber of bullet they have in their carry gun. People tend to inject their personalities into the caliber they carry."

    Have you ever noticed that people walking their dogs often tend to look like the dog they choose? Have you ever noticed that after people have been married for a period of time they start looking like each other.

    Well, maybe it's best to have several different calibers of guns so that you don't start looking like one certain caliber.:D