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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I got the bug for a tac 12ga the other day and it got me to thinking. Why is the 12ga considered the king of HD?? Wouldnt a 995 really be a better go to HD weapon than a 12ga?? I was just curious what you guys thought. This was my line of thinking:
Cost of weapon: about even I can get into a Hawk 870 clone or a mossy 500 for about the same as a 995
Cost of ammo: for target and practice again about even BUT slugs and 00 run quite a bit more, and your practice ammo for the 995 is a pretty capable HD rounds.
Size: Both are short and easey to handle for QQC
Action: 995 semiauto always a good choice for HD, but does have a higher chance of malfunction than the pump action of the 12ga so again its kind of a wash.
Capacity: Out of the box the 995 has the pump beat 10 to 5 but that can be easily fixed especially with the 870 clone $50 to the forks at choate and Im up to 8 with a 20 inch barrel, the real advantage of the 995 is that its mag fed so reloads are faster, BUT how often are you going to really need a HD weapon aand if that situation presents itself most gunfights dont go more than 3 rounds fired ( cant remember where I read that but it seemed like a credible source at the time)
Intimidation: umm 12ga wins this one hands down
NOW the big one is 9mm coming out of a carbine as effective a round as 00 buck: this is the one that I would like to see some discussion on. The way I am leaning is hit what your aimng at and nothing else

Ok Im going to leave it at these points and come back to see what you guys come up with
So just talk amongst yourselves Ill check back in :D






















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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I own both a 995 and a 12ga shotgun. Debate all you want, if a time comes when I need a HD gun, I'll grab my 12ga.
and I think 90% of people would agree with you I am just curious what in your opinion makes it superior?
 

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Carbines, while having *less* range than their full rifle counterparts, still impart a considerable amount of energy. A 995's "effective" range is +/-100m, with a maximum reach of nearly 300m!! Within a typical home defence situation (below 50m), this could be seen as TOO powerful, even with a pistol caliber round.

Another factor is shot placement. With a shotgun, by design the targeted area is alot larger because you are throwing more projectiles at it. Depending on your load, this could maximize your shot from anywhere starting at a 1/2m/sq all the way up to 2m/sq and above! Also, the choice of rounds make shotguns attractive to all walks of life: Everything from non-lethal sandbag and rubber rounds up to solid slug lead are available. This gives you a wide choice of defence no matter if it's for home, civil, military application or LE.

Another factor is the pump-action over semi-auto action. With semi-automatic all you have to do is squeeze the trigger and the rounds come flying. When the adrenialine is pumping and it's 2AM in the pitch black, 10 rounds can be depleted rather quickly, and it's hard to say where you put them because you frankly won't remember! A shotgun requires an active thought process to pump, release safety, sight and fire. Then, to pump AGAIN, re-sight and then fire. It doesn't sound like much, but those two extra actions force you to "think" about your shot. Some argue that this "slows you down", and that's exactly the point!! Throwing bullets means nothing if you cannot hit your primary target. A non-sighted shot is worse than the one aimed at you, because unlike the one aimed at you...you DON'T know where the random round is going to land! It could hit a non-combatant, ricochet off another object, hit a critical item (door, sheetrock next to the baby's room, lamp, the family chinchillia...) and that could make everything worse. This is why serious target and competition shooters start on bolt actions: To FORCE you to think about your shot.

Ease of operation is another attraction. Even people who have NEVER used a gun know how to operate a 12 gauge from all the movies. In comparison, I've seen experienced shooters who can't figure out how to charge the 995 :blink: As sad as it seems, it's the same mentality that allows Apple computers to sell more of the iPods than other companies can sell their MP3 players: Yes, they're not as advanced and have far fewer features, but EVERYONE knows how to work an iPod and it's user friendly... they haven't changed in operation since introduced! And weapons manufacturers have taken the same approach with most 12 gauge shotguns: Why change the operation when it simply works well?

And, another attractive option is that the 12 gauge is readily available and unregulated in many countries and most states. You can ALWAYS get a shotgun in the US, Canada, Poland, Germany, South Africa, Aus....well... you get the idea. They're plentiful and the ammo is relatively cheap.

All in all, while it's Carbines that win wars, it's the shotgun that the average citizen turns to in order to keep the homestead safe
 

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On the question "NOW the big one is 9mm coming out of a carbine as effective a round as 00 buck?" the answer is both No and shot placement is key?

leaving the obvious one aside, 1 round of 00 buck consists of 8 -15 depending on the load. Assuming we are talking standard 2 3/4 inch shells you have 9 pellets 00 buck which is .33 dia. While smaller than 9mm its roughly the same size as a .30 cal round in dia but admittedly lighter in weight.

when the shot load impacts the BG/deer/whatever each pellet will take its own path in the tissue basically amounting to 9 simultaneous hits with a .30 cal projectile.

Now take the carbine you have to pull the trigger 9 times to get nine wound paths in the bg and stop the attack. however shotplacement is key and if hit in the CNS most will be DRT

The penetration difference has already been explained above.

Here is a link to some 12 GA ballistics.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
 

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+1 on what the others have posted, plus there IS a psychological advantage against the BG when they hear that ka-chunk/ka-chunk of a pump shotgun going into battery. Plus knowing that even a poorly placed shot by the homeowner at short range equals a rifled slug hitting mass and taking out a goodly hunk of meat.

Many/most homes have only drywall barriers so over penetration is also a concern as has been mentioned.
 

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Ditto to the above. Even 4 ga. buckhot at < 5yards will stop the bad guy. If he gets away, or his buddy cuts and runs, the 995 is to put tires or windows out or otherwise "mark" the car to make it easier to find.

Oh, I'm using a Remington 870 Tactical with a folding stock. The stock holds 3 more rounds, so I have 10 either near or in the gun.
 

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I'd grab my Maverick 88 before my 995 for a HD situation. 9mm is a good round, but some high velocity Hydra Shock 00 buckshot is guaranteed to put someone on their butt, and probably they will be dead before they hit the ground. The fact that there's a wider impact area (greater surface area of damage on the target) gives you more kinetic energy and more knockdown. If someone's in my house I want them to be on the ground in one shot so they don't have a chance to hurt/kill me or any family members. Now, if one of those meth heads behind my house was in the yard with a gun I'd go for the 995 to take them down, but indoors I'd say shotgun hands down. Unless you get in a hostage situation then IMO a shottie wins any day, and if you get in that situation then you have a lot more to think about than just taking that bad guy down.
 

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I think the easiest way to see it would be to go to the range with 00 buck and your 995. Hit the target once with each and--as stated above--you'll see the difference. Essentially, (1) hit with the buck shot is equal to about 7-9 hits with the 995. Not to mention the point that buck shot will have a harder time exiting the walls of your house and harming a neighbor.

Of all the rifles in my collection, my tactical weapons are the AK-47 (LED flashlight, black K-Var furniture and red-dot scope) Mossberg 500 tactical and my 995. The Mossberg with 00 Buck would be my go-to gun.
 

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I live in a very metropolitan area and, because of this, would never consider firing anything but shot in an HD situation. Over penetration could be a huge issue if I were to use my 995. For me, Mossy 500 with #4 buckshot. Great round for close range, limited penetration, readily available, and plenty of power for a hallway or across the yard shot.

cheers,
Kyu
 

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Ditto to the above. Even 4 ga. buckhot at < 5yards will stop the bad guy. If he gets away, or his buddy cuts and runs, the 995 is to put tires or windows out or otherwise "mark" the car to make it easier to find.

Oh, I'm using a Remington 870 Tactical with a folding stock. The stock holds 3 more rounds, so I have 10 either near or in the gun.
careful with that. you really have no need to defend yourself if someone is driving away. you are no longer defending yourself or family, but instead breaking the law, not to mention endangering someone else who lives across or down the street. You could put yourself in a world of hurt doing that.

Back to question: 12g 00 gives you a better chance of connecting with your target as many have said.
 
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Essentially, (1) hit with the buck shot is equal to about 7-9 hits with the 995.
I think that is a bit off target there. each of those pellets is not, individually, going to have the energy or penetration of a 9mm from a carbine. If they did, the shot load would be 7-9 times more dangerous to bystanders than the 9mm.

More important than the hardware is the software. I am more confident/competent with a carbine than a shotgun. I live in a very rural area. Hi Point carbine is it for me.

I would not count on ANY intimidation factor, myself. Not every potential assailant will be thinking or acting rationally.

make your choice on familiarity, competence, and suitability for the situation. I would rather have someone use a 9mm carbine that they can mount properly and shoot comfortably, than a shotgun that is too long in the stock, and that they feel intimidated by. Consider all in your household who may need to use it. For me, a youth model 20 ga would be my next purchase, for a lot of different uses. HD is always a possibility.

take care,

Tom
 

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Intimidation has a place and can be effective, but I don't count on it. If I came out using the AK I'm sure someone would reconsider whatever they were trying, but I wouldn't use it in my house. I think that most people, upon seeing a pistol, small carbine/rifle, or even a shotgun sometimes will have an adrenaline rush and feel threatened, but many times may still think that they can come out on top of the situation. Now if someone comes around the corner with an M-60 or a SAW with a big ammo belt hanging off of it they are probably just going to say screw this and GTFO!
 

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... i know its not exactly what you asked...but... maneuvering around your home .. in the dark.. under stress.. the length of either weapon could work against you.. Taurus sells a pistol called 'the judge'.. a revolver... long or short barrel.. fires 45LC and/or 410 shotgun ammo. ease of use and reliability of a revolver is a plus... the 45LC is devastating.. and 410 in OO buck is great at that close range... downside... more expensive... around $500.
 

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... i know its not exactly what you asked...but... maneuvering around your home .. in the dark.. under stress.. the length of either weapon could work against you.. Taurus sells a pistol called 'the judge'.. a revolver... long or short barrel.. fires 45LC and/or 410 shotgun ammo. ease of use and reliability of a revolver is a plus... the 45LC is devastating.. and 410 in OO buck is great at that close range... downside... more expensive... around $500.
Good information on .410 penetration out of the judge can be found here.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm
 
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