9mm and .45ACP

Discussion in 'Hi-Point Pistols' started by Glock19Fan, May 13, 2014.

  1. Glock19Fan

    Glock19Fan Member

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    Like many here, I own a wide variety of firearms from a .22 derringer to an antique Civil War era cannon. I share an interest in Hi Points and I think they are one of the best values out there. With some sand paper, a quick polish and some occasional maintainence they run great.

    At the moment I dont have much interest in the Hi Point Carbines, and I have never been a .40S&W fan and the .380 Hi Point just isnt for me (unless the deal was too good to refuse). However, I do own a 9mm and .45 model.

    For anyone interested, I did a test a while back comparing 9mm and .45. I have been conducting ballistic gelatin tests for nearly 10 years now, and while they arent the definitive answer to everything I believe they do a great job of representing calibers. Many studies have been conducted from collective law enforcement involved shootings to validate that.

    Anyway, I just figured I would post the pictures for you guys to look at. The first test was a comparison of 9mm FMJ to .45ACP FMJ (124 grain vs 230 grain). The second test was a comparison of Gold Dot JHPs (124 grain +P vs 230 grain +P). I will let you guys guess which one is which.

    [​IMG]
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  2. duster066

    duster066 Supporting Member

    Hey plasticfantastic19fan, welcome to the site!;) Just a little joke. lol

    Thanks for the input. I've have used wet newspaper. Not because it's a great duplicate for anything, but because it gives decent relative results and it's cheap.

    If you have thick skin and a sense of humor you'll fit right in around here.
     

  3. Good Morning,

    I'll take a guess at the which block is which. Top block is the basic rounds with the .45acp shot through the top of the block. .45 FMJ tends to move all the way through.

    Bottom block is obviously HP ammo and I think the bottom track is the .45 HP.

    Interesting how additional speed of the 9mm round adds up to a similar wound track. Wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of either round.

    I could be wrong.
     
  4. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    Tell us about the MrCoffee trademark in your pictures.
     
  5. Dagwood

    Dagwood Supporting Member

    Yea, whats up with mr. Coffee logo?
     
  6. bluebone

    bluebone Duke of Sarcasm Member

    And THAT'S when the ADD kicked in.
     
  7. As I'm sure you can tell you allowed us to get way off topic with the distractions.

    I guess on the top pic the 45 is on bottom. That is because it started to swing up near the end and maybe the bigger round would do that.

    I have read up on this a lot and talked to many people, so far I have not found anyone that could tell the difference in a 9 and 45 wound by looking.
     
  8. kevin6154

    kevin6154 Member

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    Would be interesting to see pieces of bone cast into the gel. My theory is that the 230 grain 45 would do more damage than the 9mm if it impacted bone.


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  9. Glock19Fan

    Glock19Fan Member

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    That was just a box I used to prop the gelatin block up high enough to get sunlight to shine through so you could see the tracks.

    As for the tracks, the first test has a .45ACP through the top and the 9mm on the bottom. Warhawk- I have never heard of .45ACPs tendacy to tumble bacause of the relatively cylindrical shape of the bullet. However, the spitzer shape of the 9mm causes the center of gravity to be pushed to the rear. As the 9mm bullet penetrates, the momentum of the rear of the bullet stays constant while the nose of the bullet slows down. Because of this, the bullet tumbles 180 degrees, and the bullet penetrates base forward. Not only does the 9mm FMJ cause more damage through tumbling, but the wadcutter like profile of the 9mms base cuts a cleaner hole than the .45ACP.

    The JHP test has the 9mm on top and .45ACP on bottom (the 9mm came from the left while the .45ACP came from the right in case someone wasnt familiar with the tracks). The 9mms extra velocity did indeed create a larger hole in this test because of the higher velocity (right around 1225 FPS).

    I will post a picture of the recovered bullets a little bit later if anyone is interested.
     
  10. Glock19Fan

    Glock19Fan Member

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    The 9mm is known for its better penetration through barriers to include bone. That is one of the reasons the military ended up adopting it. As for the damage after bone, they are mostly the same. Bone effects some hollow points negatively to the point that they do not want to expand, either by clogging it or by collapsing in on itself. The higher velocity of the 9mm helps expansion after bone. The .45 may cause greater damage but there are so many factors to consider that its hard to give a definitive answer. As mentioned, both calibers and most handgun calibers for that matter are so close to each other that it is hard to distinguish.
     
  11. mawguy

    mawguy Sheep Dog Member

  12. Glock19Fan

    Glock19Fan Member

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    They arent always stories either. Many are misconceptions, myths, and just plain lies.

    In both tests the 9mm bullet had more power (energy) than the .45ACP.

    The FMJ test had approx 410 Foot Pounds of Energy (FPE) for the 9mm while the .45ACP had roughly 370 FPE. In the JHP test it was around 420 FPE for the 9mm and around 390 FPE for the .45ACP.

    Just because a cartridge or bullet is bigger doesnt mean it is more powerful. We dont determine the power of an engine by the size of it either.
     
  13. kevin6154

    kevin6154 Member

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    Don't know a whole lot bout physics but I know a car hitting a telephone pole at 30 mph destroyed the car. A Mack truck hitting a pole at 15/20mph shears the pole completely off. This is why in my mind a heavier object at a slower speed dose more damage. Lol I shoulda payed more attn in high school. I did learn some trig and algebra witch I used at previous jobs. Never took a physics class.


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  14. Glock19Fan

    Glock19Fan Member

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    I understand your reasoning but the construction of a Mack and a car are completely different, not to mention the weight difference between the two arent comparable to a 9mm vs .45.

    Even though the 9mm is smaller and lighter, it is a high pressure cartridge. It operates at nearly double the pressure of the .45 and around 50% higher velocity. That is why it is able to compete with the .45 so well.
     
  15. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter


    Not according to my ballistics app.

    ImageUploadedByHi-Point Forum1400118532.711810.jpg
    ImageUploadedByHi-Point Forum1400118703.613746.jpg

    Worst case the .45 FMJ is on par with the 9mm FMJ and in the PDX defender it's ahead in Foot Pounds of energy.
     
  16. kevin6154

    kevin6154 Member

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    I see. I also know that a smaller object at high enough speeds can do more damage than a larger object. What I don't know is how to do the math to be exact. I don't own a hp9mm but I own a ruger. I prefer my hp jh45 because the extra weight helps me on follow up shots. Back in the day my dad and I used to shoot at an abandoned slag dump. There were burned out cars old refrigerators and other appliances dumped there so I had a chance to kinda see exactly what a round wound do. Lemme tell ya federal core locked hollowpoints (357mag) left one hell of an exit hole in a washing machine. Nowadays I shoot paper. I concern myself more w accuracy. More patients in my mid 30s than in my early 20s so I learn a lot from target practice. Lol the kid in me misses blowin up stuff;)


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  17. kevin6154

    kevin6154 Member

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    So while we are on the subject... What do y'all think of frangeable (I think that's how it's spelled) ammo such as liberty civil defense or rip ect. I bought a box of liberty and they are 78gr 45acp+p supposedly 1900fps. I haven't had a chance to fire one yet. I may make the 45min drive to my moms and try some shots at water jugs n what not. I like the idea that they won't over penetrate and hurt a nieghbor nxt door in a home D situation. Dunno if I'll be able to shoot at my moms though. My step siblings don't care for me much and may give her a hard time about it.


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  18. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    * personal opinion alert *

    I don't like the overpriced wonder ammo. If I can help it I buy the cheapest .45 FMJ which is (was) Tula and the cheapest HP's.
    I've just got two mags left of reloaded hollow points ( by ammo dealer) for $16/50 and otherwise WWB hollow points from Walmart.
     
  19. Glock19Fan

    Glock19Fan Member

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    Your ballistic app is comparing under powered 9mm to standard .45ACP. My results are comparing military specification ammunition. Your app is also calculating velocities from different length barrels. If you compared the rounds from equal sized firearms the 9mm will have an even bigger advantage.

    Regardless, the 9mm in this test was from a 4 inch barrel and the .45 was from a 5 inch barrel. If the .45 was from a 4 inch barrel the results would be even more drastic.
     
  20. Glock19Fan

    Glock19Fan Member

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    Most premium hollow points will not exit the human body with the exception of some arm, leg, and glancing shots. The big problem with frangible rounds is that they may not achieve sufficient penetration to stop an attacker. I tested a MagSafe 9mm round a few years ago through denim into ballistic gelatin. To my surprise, the jacket was still in the denim while the shot only penetrated 4-6 inches. If those had been ribs, muscle, or fat on an oversized attacker then you would just inflicted a minor flesh wound.

    Not only do they have penetration issues, but with the cost being so high you cant fire more than a magazine or two without breaking the bank. IMO, at least 50-100 rounds of your self defense ammo should be fired through your weapon before settling on it for self defense. You want to ensure that it is reliable and cycles properly in your weapon because some weapons are picky about self defense ammo, even though they may function fine with target ammo.

    If you can find it, the Winchester White Box 230 grain JHPs are Wal Mart are cheap and in my testing they work great. I used to carry the 9mm version in 115 and 147 grain weights and they also performed well in my testing.