Acceptable rate of non-fail for self defense gun?

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by lklawson, Mar 24, 2016.

  1. Bah! I practice tap-rack-bang drills so, whatever..

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
  2. 1 out of every 100 rounds (2 boxes of ammo)

    4 vote(s)
    10.8%
  3. 1 out of every 250 rounds (5 boxes of ammo)

    5 vote(s)
    13.5%
  4. 1 out of every 500 rounds (10 boxes of ammo)

    8 vote(s)
    21.6%
  5. 1 out of every 1,000 rounds (20 boxes of ammo)

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  6. 0% - never ever ever EVER any firearm malfunctions in a SD gun! (EVER!!!)

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
  1. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    What is the acceptable rate of success/non-failure for a self defense gun? What I mean is, how many times per X number of rounds can a self defense gun have a failure to fire not caused by an ammunition malfunction such as a squib?

    Press the trigger, no-go-bang.

    Making this a poll. Be sure to vote so I can see the totals.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  2. Outlaw

    Outlaw Supporting Member

    1,691
    128
    Never! Nuff said ;)
     

  3. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Be sure to cast your vote in the poll at the top of the thread.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  4. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    I voted in the realistic. No matter what all guns can have a malfunction. So many variables. Ammo is paramount as some guns are ammo-centric especially with JHP's.
     
  5. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    34,494
    10,693
    NE Utah
    So if your gun EVER malfunctions for ANY reason...you will not ever carry it?

    That's ridiculous.:cool:


    I'm with TNT, after 100-200 rounds without a malfunction, the gun is good.

    Anything after that will most likely be me, the ammo, or a cleaning/lube issue.
     
  6. FirearmFanatic

    FirearmFanatic "The Enabler!"

    SD weapon ideally should never have a malfunction. I voted never. However, we all know that nothing is ever perfect, ideal, or without some type of hiccup in its life span. It is just reality.
     
  7. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Member

    377
    2
    The probability of being caught in an SD situation and the probability of a mechanical fail to fire happening with today's firearms simultaneously are, well, not very likely.

    0% failure isn't realistic. It's going to happen, depending on all kinds of conditions. There is a line of thinking that says you're better off having some kind of low rate of failure so that you are prepared when it happens.

    I would use the analogy of tire blowouts on autos. In the past, blowouts were a common failure and the average driver had experience handling this failure. Blowouts today are rare. How many young drivers today know how to react to a tire blowout?

    I'm not saying carry a dysfunctional firearm because it's "good training". But it's hard to drill on a fail to fire if you never experience it.
     
  8. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    Actually aJole I voted every 1000rds as my main carry is usually "pErFection!" :p
     
  9. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Member

    377
    2
    Thinking about this, what about human error (limp wristing, trigger reset, etc.) as the causal factor for the malfunction, Kirk? How do you want to account for this factor?
     
  10. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    Limp wristing in Cuba

    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTGZ86wt0j4[/ame]
     
  11. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    I don't.

    My poll isn't looking for advice. I've already got my opinion on what the "right" answer is. What I'm looking for is a peek into the collective mind of the firearms community. I'm trying to either support or invalidate a thesis. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  12. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    34,494
    10,693
    NE Utah
    So....will those of you that voted "never" actually STOP carrying a given gun if it has a FTF or stoppage of some kind?

    You will literally retire that gun, relegate it to range and safe, and go buy a new one, because this one failed and is now not good enough for carry?

    Really?

    If not, I call absolute and total BS on your vote.:cool:

    And don't try to justify your BS and say you meant that you'd fix it, or clean it, and make it OK again; because that's exactly what the guys at the other numbers are saying, but NEVER excludes that idea.:rolleyes:
     
  13. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    34,494
    10,693
    NE Utah
    So...do you have to shoot 1000 rounds before you are certain the gun is OK, and you will carry it? Really? You burn 20 boxes of ammo to decide of a gun is good enough to carry?

    Or...do you only shoot a few hundred, and then call it good? If so...you should have voted lower.;)
     
  14. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    I never gave it much thought as I have a JHP, a SCCY, and couple of Glocks. The jams I get with my G27 is when I convert to 9 and use the 33rd Asian Military mags. It doesn't like their hicap .40 mags either. The 9 mags work perFect in the G2 kRaptek suBBie.
     
  15. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    eeeerrrrrrrrraaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh just noting the failure rates. Just keep tabs on failures not round counts. They have lots of use. No fails. Same with the LW barrels. Although I must admit the LW.40 barrels have less testing than the 9's.
     
  16. While there is failure rates, it will never be acceptable in a SD handgun. NEVER!

    That said we have to be realistic, that semi autos do have a chance to fail during self defense. Even the best engineered gun can encounter bad ammo.

    One of the reasons I still carry a revolver. But to be fair to semi autos I have never had a failure with mine. Guess I am just lucky, I have encountered once a bad primer. Once I broke the cartridge down there was no priming compound in the primer. My fault I missed it during loading, I now inspect every primer.

    I did have frame rail break on a Glock 22. The gun still functioned on three rails though it rattled. The rattle is what caused me to break it down and discover the missing rail. And that was only after 10 rounds. I have not had a problem with any of my Glocks since.

    While my Star has never failed. Though I am always worried because the gun has had a lot of mileage.

    Had a hand break on my FIE E15 but that was after years of shooting thousands of rounds. Plus I don't carry it for SD.
     
  17. Well one word of your poll kept me from answering. The word acceptable, I don't think anybody finds failure acceptable. But the truth is any gun can fail, even if it has never had a failure.

    The best option is to carry a bug, but probably most of us do not do that. Probably because the likely chance of a SD shooting is soooo small. And then we factor in the small chance of failure. Sorta like getting struck by lightening.

    Most people would be scared to be in the water with sharks, but I have. The chance of an attack is soooo small. If it is my time, it is my time.
     
  18. cicpup

    cicpup Resident PITA Supporting Member

    15,720
    5,408
    Vermont
    So? Derringers for everyone I guess?

    Not voting because I never thought about it. Also, never owned a firearm I wanted to carry that didn't screw up at some point for one reason or another. Right now I carry my shiny Firestar because it FTE less than the black one.
     
  19. rmuniz9336

    rmuniz9336 Member

    698
    191
    Like they taught us in Basic Training, Stuff happens. You need to know how to clear it, and get another round in quickly. And that takes practice and lots of it. It also something you need to practice constantly.

    Which makes me stop and think, does anyone know where "Empty" rounds can be purchased, just to practice such a thing without danger of a bang happening in there someplace?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  20. Branth

    Branth Member

    6,275
    4
    "Never" is fun to say on gun forums to heighten your badass cred, but isn't really realistic. I'm with ajole on this one. Some level of failure is going to happen. The question is, what is the cause? If my gun jams with Winchester White Box, but has never jammed with 1,000 rounds of Remington UMC (or vice versa), do I just throw my gun in the trash, or do I stick with ammo I've tested in the gun that I have confidence in? What if my gun starts having failures to extract 10,000 rounds in, I replace the extractor, and it does another 250 rounds and counting with no issue? Can I not carry a gun because it broke once and I fixed it?

    It all comes down to root cause analysis. Is the gun jamming because of a specific and assignable cause, or is it just unreliable by nature? And once you take out specific and assignable causes like ammo preferences, mechanical wear and tear, etc, what is the failure rate? How fast do parts wear out? Replacing an extractor every 7k rounds or so is totally doable, and can be an acceptable compromise, but if my gun wears out parts every 250 rounds, that's too little "uptime" compared to how often it's going to need repairs.

    It's a complicated system, but I guess my rule of thumb is no more than 1 malfunction every 500 rounds that isn't clearly due to an assignable cause like mishandling, bad ammo, or lack of cleaning and lubrication.