Are today's muscle cars like a Hi Point?

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by Back2School, Aug 9, 2014.

  1. Back2School

    Back2School Member

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    OK, I know this is going to be controversial, but something came up on my Jeep forum and I thought I would get opinions here. First, I love old muscle cars, to me nothing will ever be as beautiful as a 69 440 six pack road runner or a 70 challenger TA (I like 3-2s and the six pack scoop :) ).

    But, when you look at 1/4 mile times, the new cars simply are FASTER STOCK than the old ones. I see the new ones kinda like a Hi Point, they get no respect - you gotta buy the high dollar rare ones or its just a piece of junk. I had people saying how slow the new Jeeps are and under powered with a 285 hp v-6. Yeah, it runs a 15 second flat 1/4 mile, but its weak....

    So, here are some stats that line up with many of the old hot rod books back in the day and what my own cars did on the track, stock. 15 seconds flat was a 5.0 stang and was the race car of the 80s.

    See these lists:
    http://ericpetersautos.com/2011/10/11/muscle-cars-were-slow/

    http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/musclecars-50fast.shtml

    Now remember, I am comparing stock to stock. No slick, no open headers, no cam, no race gas and special tunes, etc.

    So, are peoples ideas of speed influenced by emotions and ignoring hard data like timeslips (ie the Kimber vs HiPoint comparison) or are the new ones dogs compared to the old ones?
     
  2. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Yes.

    The new stuff is better in nearly every way, going, stopping, corners, comfort, longevity, mileage...there's no comparison.

    But there's a lot of emotion wrapped up in the old stuff.

    Edited...I don't see them as Hi Points though. The cars have cutting edge tech, high end everything, the HP...not so much.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014

  3. GoesBang

    GoesBang Supporting Member

    The newer V-6 Camaros have more horsepower than my 2002 Trans Am with the LS1 V-8.

    I'd never trade for one though!
     
  4. planosteve

    planosteve Lifetime Supporter

    I do love the old muscle cars, but the new cars have them beat it almost every way, except nostalgia. Power, handling, speed, acceleration, reliability, and fuel economy all go to the new cars.

    My 10 year old Dodge Ram has 90 some odd thousand miles on it and other than routine maintenance it has never been in the shop. How many cars from the 60's or 70's can say that.
     
  5. Moestooge

    Moestooge Member

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    Hi-Points are more like the old VW Beetle or Dodge Slant 6s than modern muscle cars, as in dependable, affordable and dirt simple.
     
  6. cktvt

    cktvt Member

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    Shoot, Grandma's new V6 Accord can run circles around several "muscle cars" from the days of yore, with better handling, braking, and mileage to boot.
     
  7. Hermitt

    Hermitt Hey! Get Off My Lawn! Member

    I don't think grama's v6 honda is gonna be running any 10s, 11s or even 12s in the quarter anytime soon.... ;)
     
  8. monsterdawg

    monsterdawg Member

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    What he said

    Todays cars have more computer power than spaceships had in 69

    Just putting radial tires and gas shocks on my stock 325hp 69 Chevelle makes a huge difference in handling and launching the car. 45 year old technology isn't that bad compared to new technology IMO. I can keep a distributet cap and points in the trunk with a basic tool kit and never be stranded, run mid 13's all day, run the a/c and it handles ok.
    With a new one, it handles better, is more comfy, has a better stereo and bluetooth, better weight distribution, traction control and 6 speeds, but I can't work on it without a scanner, and if it breaks down on the road, I probably ain't getting it going with hand tools in my box.

    HP is like VW Beetle. Does everything , dependable, not pretty, not best of anything really, just works.


    Sent from my iPhone using Hi-Point Forum
     
  9. bws

    bws Member

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    from the shot, any hi-point is always faster than any muscle car, new or old. Also faster than super exotic cars, race cars, all prop aircraft and commercial aircraft, and I'd even hazard to guess, 80% of all military aircraft. So in that context, I don't think there's a fair comparison to performance cars, new or old.

    But, at the risk of sounding serious, Chevy vs. Ford vs. Lamborghini, vs. Ta-Ta (cheap Indian death trap) vs. a Model T. They all do the exact same thing, using the same rules of physics. The only difference is how much you want to pay for it and any conveniences or additional accessories you may want.
     
  10. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    Very few new cars, if any, "do it" for me.
    New cars have no soul and it takes very little skill to drive them (fast).
    The traction control should be in your right foot not operated by a button.
    I consider electronic transmissions an insult.........to my intelligence.


    But hey, that's just me.
     
  11. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    I don't know, the new cars that have gone "retro" like the Camaro, the Dodges (not the Dart) the Mustangs...they look good to me.

    It may take little skill to make them go fast straight, but it still takes skill to hustle the corners. Of course, with no mountains, you probably don't have to do that much.:p

    Besides, most of the new cars have a manual mode in the tranny. And most of them can outperform 95% of the drivers out there, so the only insult should be that they are better than you.:D

    Judging by the numbers of really nice old muscle cars wrapped around trees, and the multitude of blown motors, I think the new tech is simply self defense.;)
     
  12. planosteve

    planosteve Lifetime Supporter

  13. To me, new muscle cars are gym jocks (strong because they're purposely trying to be) while old muscle cars are the old working man (strong because they gotta be); sure, the former is stronger than the latter, but the latter is going to get a ton more if not all of my respect. :p
     
  14. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    To try to answer the OP, I think I get what you're getting at.

    An HP will get the job done just as well or sometimes better than a Glock, Beretta, S&W, of even a Kimber. But if you pull out your cheap gun at the range, you're going to get funny looks.

    Similarly, if you arrive at a car show in a new Stang or Camaro, you'll "offend" the purists, even though your stock new one may outrun their stock original.
     
  15. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    I wouldn't compare a HiPoint to a muscle car of any era.
    If you're looking to compare it to anything it's probably an early 90-ies F150.....

    [​IMG]

    Which has proven to be more reliable then Hi-dollar cars.....
     
  16. Back2School

    Back2School Member

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    Tall, you hit half of it. I think people have emotional ties to their cars and their guns and sometimes cant see through that emotion. I have seen people make comments on my Jeep forum that simply dont match up with empirical data.

    For instance, Jeeps have always been and always will be, slow. They are lightweight vehicles that are underpowered with a v-6. But take a 69 road runner with that powerful 383. The RR was a huge and heavy beast and the only reason it was as fast as it was is because that 383 was so powerful. Sounds correct, right? I dont know anyone who would consider my Jeep with the aerodynamics of a brick to be a performance car, yet here it is performing as good or better than the "every man's" performance car.

    Now the facts;
    2013 Jeep Curb weight 3879 lbs. HP 285 net. 1/4 mile 15.3. 0-60 6.8 seconds
    http://www.caranddriver.com/jeep/wrangler

    1968 Road Runner weight 3400 lbs. HP 335 gross. 1/4 mile 15.0. 0-6 7ish seconds.
    http://www.oldride.com/library/1968_plymouth_road_runner.html

    Interestingly enough, everyone I see bragging about the old cars claims they can run an 11 second 1/4 mile time stock. Never saw a stock old muscle car do better than say 12.9 (most of the ones regular people bought were mid 14/mid 15s) That 12.9 second 1/4 is the same as every stock Mustang GT in the last few years. So to get equal times, you have to compare something like a limited edition LS-6 Chevelle where maybe 4K were made vs one that was like half the production run (10s of thousands). The lower hp 454 or worse yet 396's barely broke into the 14s.

    Edit Swaga - I wasnt comparing a HP to a old muscle car, but more along the lines of:
    Old muscle car = Kimber rare and expensive. Big emotional attachment where people cant see they are not 100 % better
    New muscle car = Hi Point. We get no respect from snobs but perform every bit as good or better. Just not as pretty.
     
  17. johnnyBgood

    johnnyBgood Member

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    I see your point but I remember watching a show ( Top Gear I believe ) and they put a Ferrari 308 against a bottom of the barrel economy sedan and the Ferrari could not keep up. Sure there was modern say technology put into the modern car but it didn't have the horsepower nor the race derived technology of the Ferrari.
     
  18. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    I WISH I could get a new Hi Point analog in a Muscle Car!

    We (my son and I) built our 95 Mustang like this, modern performance with
    a glaring lack of modern amenities. I will list it off below:

    LACKS:
    AC
    Power Windows
    Automatic Transmission
    Power Door Locks
    (We had removed the power steering but w/o the manual rack & pinion, it was a pita)

    Modern Power:
    Fuel Injection, EEC-V (electronic engine control, generation 5)
    Full re-engineered, big valves, ports, ported intakes, big throttle body...
    Killer rear end gear ratio (3.73, and 2.73 was stock) ;)
    Kenny Brown complete Extreme Matrix Subframe Kit, welded in
    (you could tie into the front subframe with a forklift and pick up the entire car with no damage!) :eek:
    Many other items.


    It is a 3.8L V6, but the airflow and (stock) camming conservatively call for over 200 BHP easily. Factory Headers (best version, A-1!) and dual exhaust ensured excellent flow, up to 300 HP or more. (so 200 is not even pushing it)


    I say it is like an HP, excellent CHEAP performance, infinitely MOD-able and fun to change around! Did I say CHEAP? We got the car for $1000 and did the mods, as it needed the head gaskets replaced. It had about $4000 worth of mods already on it, so it was a steal!


    I'd love an HP-Like modern muscle car, but they will not build it.
    Current duratec V6 Mustang, just like ours, and I can get it up over 400 BHP quite easily. :D
     
  19. New Hellcat.

    I would love one of those new Dodge Hellcat's. 700+ HP for $70k? Heck, yeah!