Discussion in 'Vintage Topic Archive (Sept - 2009)' started by FLA2760, Oct 30, 2007.

  1. FLA2760

    FLA2760 Guest

    I found this over at Glock Talk and found it a good read. What would you have done?

    Robber, baseball bat and a .25


    This has been an unusual night.

    I was at home tonight, and had the TV on when I heard what sounded like an argument outside. I live in a pretty nice residential neighborhood, but you don't have to go too far for the neighborhoods to take a turn for the worse. So my first thought was that some flotsam had started yelling at each other while passing through. This is in a historic district with all 100+ year old homes, so the houses are set close to the street with large back yards. After a few moments more with it continuing, seemingly very close by the front of my house, I went to see what was happening.

    The streetlight across the street burned out a few days ago and has not been repaired yet, so it was hard to see even with porch lights on, but as soon as I opened the door, I could tell it was serious. Of all things, I had slipped a Beretta .25 in a front pocket today, but I hadn't left home and wasn't planning on it tonight. From my porch I could hear at least two people yelling, and see that "something" was happening just off the sidewalk about 30 feet away, but I couldn't see well enough to make out details. I heard loud yelling, cursing, and made out, "Give it to me! Just ****ing give it to me." I still had the idea that there were two men fighting, but was not sure. I had the Beretta out of my pocket and by my side, and yell, "What the hell is going on?! Stop now!!!"

    I still couldn't see well, and came off my porch and down to the sidewalk, still unsure of what was going on, and yell again, "Stop now!" A person came towards me and I definitely had the impression that it was a serious situation. At that point, I brought up the Beretta (in a weaver stance, you really do react out of habit), pointed it between the eyes of the 17-20 year old black male who had gotten to about 10 feet from me, and said, "What the **** is going on here?!"

    He stopped, shoulders squared to me, and just looked at me, or perhaps the barrel of that little Beretta, for maybe 4-5 seconds, then suddenly hauls ass. When he is clear out I go check out the man laying against the tree. Turns out it is a neighbor from around the block, 50ish, covered in blood, but conscious. The black guy had beaten him with a baseball bat repeatedly during what turned out to be a robbery. The man was walking his dog and having a cup of coffee. I don't know how bad the injuries are, but they were significant.

    I never saw the bat.

    Of all times to have the little .25, this was a pretty damn bad one. But the contrast between what he did to an unarmed man vs. an armed man who confronted him is pretty stark.

    The things that really stand out to me are how many unknowns there were, variables that would have probably changed my decision making process. It never occurred to me that it was a strong arm robbery until it was over. My first thought was that it was a fight that turned very violent, and I stayed with that assumption throughout. I had no idea the robber was armed with a bat, but I did know I didn't want him any closer to me when he got off the other guy. Turns out that was a good call.

    I absolutely experienced tunnel vision, when he came forward towards me, I don't recall anything outside of looking directly at him. I didn't hear anything at all at that point either. I do recall a good clear sight picture, literally right between his eyes. There was never a question in my mind that I would shoot him if he presented a threat...but I never saw that damn bat.

    There is a lot to try to sort out in a very short period, and I certainly didn't have all the info I wanted. Or the firearm. I would say it turned out ok - except the innocent victim may well be seriously injured and the criminal will probably get away.

    This was pretty bad even for a Monday.
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
  2. Couple thoughts on this one, first, based on the authors own word that he thought it was 2 men fighting, he should have called the police first. Failure to do that, then going out to confront with a weapon, if he had been correct in his assumpion could have brought a "brandishing a weapon" charge. Second, the author made a very serios tactical error on going out side, into the dark, into a totaly unknown situation, with no reasonable reason to do so. That put him at risk. It turned out to be a good thing that he did, but based on the knowledge that he had, it was a very stupid thing to do.

    Just my $.02.........

  3. agree. I would call the cops and take a defensive position inside, maybe with the door open. Maybe start flashing the porch light. He said it was dark, said BG or close enough sometimes come by. There was every reason think this was bad and could get worse, by his own words. Going into the situation, taking a gun, presenting it, then shooting - coming from a safe house with a phone - I fear this might have been easy lawyer fodder.

    He may be called a hero if the victim lives. One split second of bad timing and he's in jail, maybe for a very long time.
  4. I agree with Drilln!+1... :!:
  5. I agree with everything said so far but just to be the Devil's Advocate for a minute....

    Just a thought, but what if he had done as you guys suggested and called the cops first? Granted that would have been the smart thing to do, but in that kind of a situation LEO's are going to respond with Lights and Sirens and the BG is going to bail as soon as he sees or hears them. SO, the BG is likely to get away anyway. Now, had he not confronted the BG, what's to say that the beating wouldn't have continued until his neighbor was dead?

    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing"

    I think the author saved that mans life. Regardless of what the BG did, it will come back around on him eventually. Preservation of life is paramount IMHO. Just the fact that he had the Beretta in his hand prevented further damage to his friend/neighbor and quite possibly prevented a murder AND the robbery from actually happening as he said the BG was screaming for the victim to "Give it to me". I give the guy a HUGE +1 on his action verses inaction. I also agree that there were other options, smarter options to boot, but what he did possibly saved a life.

    /devils advocate. :D
  6. He probably saved the victims life or at least prevented further injury by doing what he did. Yes it was a bit foolish on his part, and could have ended with a very different outcome. So... this is one of those "your a hero" BUT "you should have done...." scenarios.

  7. If I was already in my own house, I might have ran in and gotten a better gun if I had one that I could lay my hands on quickly, while dialing 911. I would approach from concealment until I could see what was going on. I wouldn't have walked into any situation not being able to see what is going on. If there had been a life threatening situation going on and the had a gun, both the victim and the intervenor could have been dead because the BG had the advantage of concealment in the actual sceanrio.

    I would've intervened to help the neighbor, but I would HOPE I would think it through tactically.

    Either eay, to put his life out that that for an innocent is a cool (if not a well-though out) thing.
  8. bud

    bud Member

    If everybody carried you could very possibly send BG packin before getting hit with the bat. Everyone who can, should carry. Some people won't put it on the line for you and shouldn't be expected to.
  9. Uraijit

    Uraijit Guest

    Edit: Withdrawn.
  10. Thayldt21

    Thayldt21 Senior Member Member

    Thats what I would have said. I just don't have the verbal skills to do so.

    I agree completly with Uraijit, but I expect some expert to come along and tell us how wrong we are and the Life sentance he would have gotten.
  11. Uraijit

    Uraijit Guest

    Yeah, everybody's a lawyer... :roll:
  12. You can't call the police everytime you here loud voices. Eventually it'll be the "little boy who called wolf" deal when the police are called yet again to a call, but this time it is a real one. I think he did good, and he wouldn't have been charged for brandishing a weapon as he didn't pull untill the man was 20 feet from him I believe. He did well considering what had happened. I have only pulled a weapon once on someone stateside and I tell you that there is alot of hindsight that goes through your head afterwards. I did alot of "what if" scenarios in my head for weeks afterwards.
  13. Yep, a smart man would have went inside, called the cops, and hunkered down and peeked out of his window to watch and the cops would finally arrive, then the detectives then the meat wagon to take the victim to the mourge.

    That is what is wrong with our country these days, the criminals have so many frigging rights that the good people are scared to act! :evil:
  14. andrew241

    andrew241 Member

    +1 I agree with you.
  15. +1 so true also Primal can I use your quote in my sig "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing" don't want to use someone else's quote without permission
  16. Uraijit

    Uraijit Guest

    Edmund Burke said that. I'm sure he won't mind you quoting him. :wink:
  17. billybybose

    billybybose Guest

    I think both scenarios work,Different strokes for different folks.The good guy was armed,was trained,was willing to pull the trigger.Here a dude was chasing his ol lady with a knife.A good guy got involved and was killed.The actree teresa saldona was getting stabbed and a good guy stepped in and beat the crap outta the dude.Depends on what kinda a dude you are if you step in,or callthe cops,or dont help at all.I think the bare minimum should be to call the cops.
  18. Reread my post. I said "based on the authors own word that he thought it was 2 men fighting, he should have called the police first. Failure to do that, then going out to confront with a weapon, if he had been correct in his assumpion could have brought a "brandishing a weapon" charge." Put the emphasis on "If he had been correct in his assumtion". Because he was wrong, he is a hero. Plain and simple. Also "could have brought" not would have, could have. As it turned out, he was justified in presenting his weapon, but if his assumtion was correct then he was not. I would like to think that most prosecuters would over look an honest attempt to keep the peace (stop a fight) but we all know that is not the case.

    As for my second point, he made a serios tactical error, approaching a unknown situation, in the dark, without knowledge that there was a life threatining situation. Again, that was a very stupid thing to do.
  19. He was armed and ready to defend himself. He helped out a fellow man, I may say that he was rash, but I will not call him stupid.

    We need more people like him and there will be less people like the BG with the bat.
  20. When you are entering life threatening situations, rash usually equals stupid.

    Playing the what if game....What if the BG was pistol whipping the neighbor, by the guys own admission he didn't see the bat til after bg had fled, he would not have seen a gun either, maybe til it was to late.