[robertgreen_86]

So i found these on cabelas website. I was thinking about buying some and experamenting around with 45acp loads for bear defence, I am wondering if anyone else has tried em or can throw out some ideas...

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...parentType=index&indexId=cat601233&hasJS=true

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

ive played around with teh 30 cal ones for 30-30 and at the ranges they are intended for they dont improve performace to any large degree. to sole advantage is you can put a pointed bullet in a tubular magazine.

SW

 

[robertgreen_86]

so you dont think they would improve expansion/penatration any over standard xtp hollow points?

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

if anything else they expand less as the hollow point on these is smaller compared to a stnadard XTP of the same caliber.

SW

 

[robertgreen_86]

Thanks for the info guess i'll save my money........who am i kidding I will just blow it on something else...lol

 

[Evi|grin]

I use both in my 50cal black powder using the 45cal FTX 200grain, 250gr and 300gr in a sabot and the 300gr 50cal in my 54cal blackpowder with a sabot. IMO they work great but a tiny bit over priced. I can easily shoot sub 2in 100yard groups or better with little effort and IMO can extend the effective range of MY guns by another 50yards or more with practice. I will be trying them out at 150yards this weekend at our private range to see how far they drop compared to jacketed hollow points and hard cast round nose sabot loads. (My own cheap shot load).

The 200gr 45 has explosive expansion at roughly 2000fps and is mostly just a fun round for me. Over expansion actually under 50yards but it might be fine at 150+ and some time to slow down a bit.

Beats the hell out of $1+ per bullet from Barnes MZ Expanders or Spitzers but the Barnes do perform awesome on game or defense use. I mainly like them because i can order bullets and sabots separately and save about %50. Then save my Barnes for hunting and less range/plinking time. Cabelas also had/has the MMP sabots i like at %50 off for my 54cal so i saved even more this time.

Actually i just ordered another 100 of each last friday plus a Pedersoli Ovation 50cal to try them in also with a faster twist than all my others. On sale for $99 and was over $300. Ugly but very well made and figured WTH why not.

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0071355217159a.shtml

If you had a 45/70 im guessing you could load up some fairly nice flatter shooting loads. I wouldnt pay the extra for use in a non magnum pistol unless i was just testing them in a carbine that uses a non magnum pistol cartridge. In most pistol rounds i doubt you would see more than a 50yard improvement in drop. The 45/70 IMO is about the only one that looks like it has the most potential benefit from a rifle. The 44mag carbine might be fun too but i would still put heavy distance restrictions on humane shots at my skill level.

 

[robertgreen_86]

thats was kinda my thinking. I went ahead and ordered a box for my 45/70 guide gun but i gave up on the idea of shooting it through my 45acp rounds. oh well i find another crazy arse idea..lol

 

[Evi|grin]

thats was kinda my thinking. I went ahead and ordered a box for my 45/70 guide gun but i gave up on the idea of shooting it through my 45acp rounds. oh well i find another crazy arse idea..lol

The 45 cal they have in the bargain bin is 451 or 452 diameter....45/70 is 458 if i remember correctly. Hornady does offer a 325gr FTX i think and maybe a 300gr for the 458 diameter. If you can get the 200gr to shoot accurately enough it should be at least fun and have less recoil than any factory load.

IMO its only what i call a fun round but it might be more. Pushing a pistol bullet past its designed velocity will have limitations and the bullets seldom hold together on impact.

Look at the Barmes Spitzer or Original soft point offerings if you want to get serious about a longer range bullet for the 45/70. I KNOW they do work and dont come apart. They are very expensive though.

As always please be very careful with hotter 45/70 loads. Very few actions can handle a steady diet of them loaded on the warm side. My friends custom Siamese Mauser in 45/70 is one of the few i would trust as an example. I stick to factory pressures and load data for my Sharps replica.

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

NEF handi rifles in 45-70 are good candidates for hot loads as well. ive run some top end stuff through mine wiht no problems.

SW

 

[Evi|grin]

NEF handi rifles in 45-70 are good candidates for hot loads as well. ive run some top end stuff through mine wiht no problems.

SW

Good Call, i forgot about that one and a few of the other break actions with multi barrel options.

The NEF would make a great choice for building up warmer loads. One of these days im going to find one in 30-30, 44mag or rechamber a 357mag to 357MAX. (I still have some brass and its a simple conversion )

I seem to enjoy the single shots more for recreational use and i really like building up loads for carbines that still shoot well past their intended effective range. The FTX rounds do have some potential but really are not worth the cost in most cases. The larger bore bullets for a carbine, Blackpowder or T/C type guns might see the most benefit. In my Thompson carbine 30-30 i used to load inexpensive BTHP Speer (i think) and im sure those will do just as well as the FTX series at improving effective range. I know this line is really meant for lever guns and tubular mags.

BTW Some of the pre loaded FTX ammo actually has a slightly different length case.

 

[Drilln]

If you are looking for a 45 acp bear defense load, hollow points or any other bullet desighned to expand shouldn't be your first choice. you should be looking for a heavy solid bullet that will give you as much penitration as possible. The flexi tips and SST bullets are not likley to perform (expand much) at 45acp velocities. Now the 200 gr. SST's out of a 460 S&W expand with explosive force (coyote at 50 yards left me with something I couldn't even take a picture of, think "pink mist") and the flexi tips seem very similar to the SST's

 

[xtremehunter83]

my cousin uses these i think for his 500 smith an wesson for hunting deer i know they look pretty badass hanging name near out of the cylinder

 

[robertgreen_86]

If you are looking for a 45 acp bear defense load, hollow points or any other bullet desighned to expand shouldn't be your first choice. you should be looking for a heavy solid bullet that will give you as much penitration as possible. The flexi tips and SST bullets are not likley to perform (expand much) at 45acp velocities. Now the 200 gr. SST's out of a 460 S&W expand with explosive force (coyote at 50 yards left me with something I couldn't even take a picture of, think "pink mist") and the flexi tips seem very similar to the SST's

Good Point. I personally have never cared to much about penetration with bear loads as i wont be shooting at the head in a S/D situation anyhow. Most folks that i have talked to that came up on bear out here said they only have time for one or two quick shots. I will be center massing it. I have come up on a few during some hikes but the closest one has gotten so far was about 10 yards. I was ready but when my son started laughing the bear thought better and just mossied on out. Now hunting em that's a different story all together.

 

[CoyoteUGLY]

thats was kinda my thinking. I went ahead and ordered a box for my 45/70 guide gun but i gave up on the idea of shooting it through my 45acp rounds. oh well i find another crazy arse idea..lol

our WM had a similar thing sold w/plastic sabbots for .50 muzzies. A 250gr bullet w/a yellow tip. Mic at .451 if i recall. Bought several boxes & developed a load based on a 250gr FMJ data I found for 45ACP...

The yella tips don't fit in the gun of course, ya have to grind it down to near the copper (BEFORE ya load them into a shell obviously), and then they cycle ok, but barely within any typical OAL.

The ballistic tip on handgun bullets is to penetrate clothing, not flesh, the one's I dug from the dirt still have good expansion, but would certainly part the hair of most critters rather than fill the hollow. As soon as they hit soft tissue or solid bone the polycarbonate pushes into the hollow & starts the expansion.

MY preference though is a simple 240 gr JHP with a std hollow & no tip, another WM sabboted bullet from Hornady. I made a load for these that I like really well. I'm no great hand-gunner, but was cutting decent groups at 50 yds with no drop, plan to use it on deer... no bears yet in Iowa (though we have our share of Mt Lions, unfortunately they tend to sneak behind ya, rather than at the muzzle end of a JHP)

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

thats was kinda my thinking. I went ahead and ordered a box for my 45/70 guide gun but i gave up on the idea of shooting it through my 45acp rounds. oh well i find another crazy arse idea..lol

our WM had a similar thing sold w/plastic sabbots for .50 muzzies. A 250gr bullet w/a yellow tip. Mic at .451 if i recall. Bought several boxes & developed a load based on a 250gr FMJ data I found for 45ACP...

The yella tips don't fit in the gun of course, ya have to grind it down to near the copper (BEFORE ya load them into a shell obviously), and then they cycle ok, but barely within any typical OAL.

The ballistic tip on handgun bullets is to penetrate clothing, not flesh, the one's I dug from the dirt still have good expansion, but would certainly part the hair of most critters rather than fill the hollow. As soon as they hit soft tissue or solid bone the polycarbonate pushes into the hollow & starts the expansion.

MY preference though is a simple 240 gr JHP with a std hollow & no tip, another WM sabboted bullet from Hornady. I made a load for these that I like really well. I'm no great hand-gunner, but was cutting decent groups at 50 yds with no drop, plan to use it on deer... no bears yet in Iowa (though we have our share of Mt Lions, unfortunately they tend to sneak behind ya, rather than at the muzzle end of a JHP)

pics, targets, chrono data etc? we want to see.

SW

 

[CoyoteUGLY]

chrono? LOL! I wish!!

I'll try to post a target pic & a shot of the rounds themselves when I have time.

I have a friend w/a chrono & caught him at the range one day... my 185gr HP/XTP's were loaded pretty hot & they graphed just under 1,000. These 240gr punkins definately rock the slide back, but don't "feel" any worse than the 185's though they use only about 70% of the powder charge.

all this is per some specs I found, i think it was a Lyman guide. And I found that 10% less than the reccomended load left no significant change in grouping, so I set my charges there. Can PM it to anyone who wants, but I definately recommend working-up "your own" charge (there, now the lawyers breathed a sigh of relief) It's no doubt in or near the +P preassures.

 

[CoyoteUGLY]

sorry, this is the best I can do right now, in a rush to get somewhere & didn't have time to remove my shoe & expose the toes.

The hollow-points have a dab of orange paint in the hollow, that's just my personal color-code for the particular load, so I know at a glance what is in my mag. This is the 240gr bullet from the Wal-Mart sabbot box I was talking about (pictured w/the target).

The yella tip is the ground-down version of a similar 250 gr bullet made for .50 cal sabbots.

the target is my 50 yd fm yesterday noon. The white square inside the black border is 4". The two inside that are definate kills, the other two would sure hurt. (I covered the load data, but PM if ya want it).

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

hmmmm. interesting. so they are 45 cal bullets made for use in ML sabots?

SW

 

[CoyoteUGLY]

yeah, they mic to .452 but they shoot fine even w/my weak pistol skills.

The 250gr bullets are .451 but I don't find them as accurate. Might be I just didn't work-up a good enough load. I only have Unique & even then I didn't spend much time on that one cuz they just are more expensive. Around $12/20 (still way better than typical factory defense rounds), but the 240gr HP's are same price for 30 bullets.

I'd sure like to know where they chrono, so if anyone else gives it a try I hope you'll post the results.

 

[robertgreen_86]

hmmm I will be going to wally world this weekend....lol