Co-witness on a HP carbine

Discussion in 'Hi-Point Carbines' started by BlackBart, Dec 8, 2014.

  1. I have one those 4 reticle holographic scopes that I never used.It would need a riser to use it on my .45,so I could still use my rear sight and front sight.Whats the best co- witness setup on a HP carbine?
  2. Hot-Shot

    Hot-Shot Member

    4095 with reddot

    I mounted a red dot just ahead of the stock sight and can aim through it I tried it on my 995 but there was not enough room. Have to range test and see how the dot works didn't need any risers

  3. Not2ManyGuns

    Not2ManyGuns Member

    When you ask, "What's the best co-witness setup on a HP carbine," what type of best co-witness are you referring to. Absolute co-witness or lower 1/3 co-witness?
  4. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

    The best co-witness is none. ;)

    Red Dot's and iron sights are two separate sighting systems and have nothing to do with each other. When used properly, the iron sights are not zeroed to the red dot and the red dot should not be zeroed to the iron sights.

  5. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    ^ I don't understand......
  6. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

  7. planosteve

    planosteve Lifetime Supporter

    Good article Flash thanks for posting it.
  8. Not2ManyGuns

    Not2ManyGuns Member

    My take of the article is that the author suggests that one doesn’t use irons sights at the same time one uses a red dot. I totally, absolutely agree with this.

    That said, there are two types of commonly defined co-witness. There is absolute co-witness and there is lower 1/3 co-witness.

    Absolute co-witness is when while looking through the both sights at the same time, the red dot aims and the bullet hits the exact same spot on the target as the irons sight will.

    Apparently the TruGlow type of sights, that Hi-Point sells, will absolute co-witness with the irons on the Hi-Point carbines. Since as the article suggests only one set of sights should be used at a time and also since the iron sights on Hi-Point carbines do not fold, I find it irritating to have absolute co-witness on a Hi-Point carbine with the stock iron sights. The only way I personally like absolute co-witness is when the iron sights are of the foldable type so that I only use the red dot when the iron sights are folded, or use the irons in the unfolded position with red dot turned off. I would never use both type of sights at the same time except while rudimentarily zeroing a newly installed red dot sight with the iron sights which have already been zeroed at the shooting range. After this rudimental zeroing of the newly installed red dot to the iron sights, in my opinion the irons should be folded and then the red dot should be zeroed while at the range by shooting groups of five rounds.

    The other method of co-witness is having the red dot in the center of the picture while viewing through the red dot tube while at the same time having the iron sights in the lower 1/3 of the view in the tube. This lower 1/3 co-witness method is the one used by most shooters that are using non folding iron sights. In this lower 1/3 co-witness, the iron sights are not interfering with the view through the red dot sight as much as it would be if the co-witness was absolute. Once again only one set of sights should be used at a time. If the shooter uses the red dot, he should mentally disregard the iron sights which are in the lower 1/3 part of the view. If the shooter is using the iron sights he should turn off the red dot.

    To use the lower 1/3 co-witness, a riser is normally needed to be added under the red dot to cause the iron sights to be in the exact lower 1/3 position so that the view through the red dot sight is not obscured and the irons should be positioned so that the shooter can see the whole target. If the irons are lower than the lower 1/3 position, in other words, near the bottom of the red dot tube, the shooter does not get enough view of the target when using only the irons. If the irons are too close to the actual red dot (above the 1/3 position) it is hard to disregard the irons when attempting to only the red dot.

    The height of the stock Hi-Point iron sights are not the same height as standard sights used on other black rifles; consequently, most risers sold will not place the Hi-Point irons in the exact lower 1/3 position of a red dot viewing tube. I have searched the internet for such a riser to no avail. I have tried to use a Bushnell TRS-25 on my 995TS on the rail in front of the Hi-Point iron sights without a riser and found that although the irons are in view when looking through the tube, they are not in the ideal lower 1/3 position.

    The solution, that satisfied me best for the 995TS with stock irons sights, was to use the Bushnell TRS-25 on a NcStar 45º Off-Set Weaver/Picatinny Rail Mount mounted on the rail in front of the Hi-Point iron sights. This way the red dot does not interfere with the irons and vice-versa.

    Attached Files:

  9. mn_doggie

    mn_doggie Member

    "when used properly"????? In whose expert opinion is that?

    There is nothing wrong with having both sets of sights zeroed at the same point.

    Having them both zeroed make for a quick check in case some damage might have happened to the firearm.

    However, I would agree that it is best to flip down (if possible) the iron sights when using the reflex sight and turning off the reflex sight when using the iron sights.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  10. cicpup

    cicpup Resident PITA Supporting Member

    But what if your last battery dies and you still have ammo? What then? Didn't think of that did ya smarty? Plus it's huge Tacticool boost.
  11. Thanks much Not2ManyGuns.Very informative.
  12. Hot-Shot

    Hot-Shot Member

    Good post I will try the 45 degree mount
  13. Johnny_B_Goode

    Johnny_B_Goode Member

    One thing I highly recommend is replacing the polymer rail with a metal rail if you are going to use an optic on a Hi Point Carbine, especially if you are going to use an optic and a set of co witness sights.

    Co witness sights are not meant to be a bore sight to check your optic. Co witness sights are meant to be a back up to your optic.
  14. 0311

    0311 Member

    I was thinking about getting the FULL length rail, then installing BUIS on the 45 degree angle. Keeping the red dot as the primary sight. Just wonder if the front & rear sights would have enough distance from each other to be accurate.
    I've seen this setup on AR's, so it must work.
  15. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

    The only red dot optics that I have used are M-68s on issued M-4s, and I only recently decided to mount a Bushnell TRS-32 on my own AR. For all of those rifles, the iron sights have co-witnessed with the red dots just by virtue of how tall the M-4 fixed front sight is and the flip-ups on my own AR are. I found that getting a rough zero out of the natural positioning of the iron sights was a handy bi-product of the configuration, but it is not an alignment that I would recommend anyone intentionally put forth great effort to achieve.

    Ultimately, the ideal solution is to be able to use the red dot as the primary sighting device, while the iron sights should be the backups to it. If the iron sights are fixed and co-witnessed, they are already positioned for immediate use in the event of a red dot failure. If the co-witnessed iron sights are flip-ups, it may take a second to raise them if the red dot fails, but they will be completely out of the way, allowing the most unobstructed field of view around the red dot.

    If the the configuration of the iron sights does not lend itself to co-witnessing, that does present a potential problem because the scope mount will obstruct the line of sight through the iron sights. While a 45-degree optic mount can help mitigate that problem, it can also cause problems if you have to shoot from the weak side. Another option is to use a see-through riser mount. It will put the optic mount up out of the way so that you can look underneath it, through the iron sights.

    Another potential solution is to mount the scope in a push-aside type of mount. If the optic fails, it can be pushed aside, thereby clearing line of sight for use of the irons.

    In any case, do make sure that you train extensively with whatever systems you have installed on your weapon. Do not go to the range and just spend the entirety of every trip using only your optics. Spend some time with the dot shut off, using your co-witnessed iron sights or non-co-witnessed iron sights. The more you practice with both, the faster your transition from one to the other will be if you ever have to make it.
  16. ItBeMe

    ItBeMe Member

    This is a very good post and I am going to put my red dot on 45º and put the iron sites back on. Thanks guys for all the good info and I take back all the crap I said about you. :D
  17. Lol.I bought a new soft case for my 4595 recently and did'nt factor in the 45 degree angled scope.The case is 36" and with the compensator attached,it just barely fits and zips up.I haven't bought the new scope yet, but will probably have to buy another case as well.Oh well,that's just another reason to buy another HP carbine.So the wife will have her own.:)
  18. kengrant

    kengrant Member

    My stock sights were zeroed at 25 yds. I installed a Tru-Glo Red Dot in front of the rear sight and found my zero changed greatly on my stock sights when looking through the Red Dot with it turned off.
    Took the Red Dot off and the stock sights were back on zero.

    I guess there is refraction when looking through the Tru-Glo
  19. 0311

    0311 Member

    This is how I ultimately mounted my optics. Seems to work ok.

    Attached Files:

  20. ItBeMe

    ItBeMe Member

    Ok I got mine setup the way I want it. Got both the red dot and the open sites sighted in at 25 yards at 100% on so good that I put two slugs in the same hole. That makes me happier than a pig in mud. :D
    Also getting my AR-15 set up the same way. You know outside of the 30 round mag I will take the carbine over the AR-15 any day of the week.

    Attached Files: