Hi-Point Firearms Forums banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,817 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok so lets take a potential discussion to a common point as opposed to a more adversarial view. Let us throw this out there ;

Rep Allen Boyd (D-Fla.) is a skilled politician who has pretty much seen it all - a Deep South Democrat who's managed to dispatch all opponents in his conservative-leaning Panhandle district since winning election in 1996. But as he fended off gnats buzzing through the August humidity after a morning fending off angry constituents at a town hall meeting here, Boyd confided that the depth of the unease spurred by the health care debate had caught him by surprise.

"They may be in a minority, but they are a larger minority than we've seen in the 20-plus years that I've been doing this," said Boyd of the standing-room-only crowds who have been showing up to shout, boo, mutter and, in one case, hand him an actual stack of pink slips since he returned home for recess. "I've never seen anything like this." . . . But for all the cries of Astroturf fakery and ginned-up crowds, a ground zero view in a district like Boyd's underlines that a very real sense of anger and frustration is bubbling over as summer wanes. . .

"People are scared," Boyd said twice, trying to explain what would drive his constituents away from home and work and out into the broiling Florida sun in the middle of the week to see their congressman.

Ok no matter what your stand on the matter its is obvious that a certain amount potential exists for causing some pretty extreme rifts in this country. The higher emotion is on the con side of the issue. How much higher is as surprising as the numbers. Even Vietnam was not as emotional in such numbers if that brings things into focus, most of the objection was in the form of principled type. It took years for Vietnam to build to the point of directly involving large numbers of people personally. The current situation sees objection in a very personal manner and peoples actions reflect it involving large numbers quickly. People opposed to the Heath Care issue see the risk reward as this, solve a principled issue vs irreversible major alteration of the country. That's a diplomatic way of presenting this as I'm sure stronger terms could easily be used.

So given the above is it best for the republic for this to go though, or hold off until voter ideas are more clearly expressed at the polls. If you say no pass it now by any means necessary what is your solution to repair results of the government failing in the most likely fashion given past experience.

If you say yes stop it cold until 2011, what would be your guess on the results if it is passed with a public option

I am of course in the second group along with what I see as roughly half the population. My honest guess is an eventual collapse of the American financial system over a period of years or less given some other crisis and some very rough dictatorial governance from DC to attempt control the uncontrolable. No politics just an honest answer so its no wonder people like myself are very strongly against this move, what else could we be?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,095 Posts
Our financial situation has been teetering for several years now. And with all the banks failing it on a downhill slide. FDIC is broke, We owe to much debt to other countries, Jobs are going byebye, and people can't pay their taxes that funds local,state,and federal government. People can't pay their loans, credit cards, or other bills. and THIS is just the beginning!! Farmers can't get the loans to buy seed and other things they need to grow crops as a result food is becoming a scarcity. Alot of places are having a drought and water is scarce and what is left states are battling each other to get it.

My mom and dad were children during the Great Depression and told me what it was like back then and 80% of the folks around today won't survive in the coming years
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
10,232 Posts
Ok so lets take a potential discussion to a common point as opposed to a more adversarial view.
oh i like that idea.

but its kinda downhill from there, because you only lay out two options, and i think there are a lot of people who do not agree with either idea. as is usually the case, the majority rests somewhere in the middle, but it is the extreme elements that are the loudest and get the most attention.

i like the public option. i don't like the idea of mandating that people have anything, but we already settle for mandatory auto insurance in most states because we understand that the overall risk needs to be spread out in order to make it affordable for everyone and that it is a responsibility that you must be insured in order to drive. now i know you will say, well driving is a privilege and thats true. but this analogy is as close as anyone can get as far as i know.

anyway, i like the public option because the concept of 'affordable' healthcare is foreign to this country. i am well employed and make good money and even get a good deal on healthcare and it is still outrageous how much i and my employer together spend for my healthcare. can you imagine what it is like for the millions in this country whose combined household income is less than $30K? I have lived at that income level and i could barely afford housing and groceries, let alone a healthcare plan. the insurance companies do not offer affordable care for the many millions out there, and many more millions are under insured and don't even know it. they find out when they try to make their first substantial claim on their policy. this is unacceptable. if the insurance companies won't do it, who will? it is totally immoral that in a country of this wealth and greatness would tolerate letting so many of the population live without adequate healthcare. i know i know, it aint the government's job. yeah i get that, in theory. but in real life, something needs to be done. and its not necessarily a handout. when i could not afford healthcare for my small family, i was gainfully employed working 45 hours a week in a residential treatment facility for adolescent boys. i was pouring every thing i had into that job. oh yeah, and i was also on medicaid because the insurance policy offered was only half of my take home pay each month. if we accept medicare and medicaid without townhall protests and tea parties and so on and so forth, why not a government run public option that provides affordable healthcare to those who do not qualify for entitlement programs?

edit to say that i really do like the idea of debating to come to common ground. i will do my best
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,281 Posts
Common ground is probably a very mis-leading title as I see it. There is little common ground other than we all agree that something needs to be done. Since there is a vast difference between what both sides say they want I'm at a loss as to how they come together. I do NOT trust any politican to come up with a workable plan, since they are only looking at the problem as a way to stay in office = power. I'm tired of people saying that we need to wait and vote them out. But whom do we elect and what are the chances they might get elected. What happens to our country in the next year til the election and then how long before the new elected people do something. The voting solution being offered is a crappy choice IMO. If a stupid law is put into effect how do we undo it. Many people are very mad but their still waiting for someone else to do what ever it is to do it, and no one is talking about the what if problem should things get worse. The left has stuck it's head in the sand and refuses to hear / listen to what the people say. While we talk they are chipping away at our rights. To me they see the hand writing on the wall and are preparing for what ever comes down the pike and still we just talk! How many times will we be told to sit down and shut up before the line is drawn and they are told "DO NOT CROSS THIS LINE OR WE WILL TAKE IT TO THE NEXT LEVEL". I wonder how many Americans are willing to stand up?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,817 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for sticking to the spirit of things. Bias always comes out but that is normal.

I see this as a damned if we do unknown if we don't type of issue. I just do not see how the Feds can do anything well enough to justify the risk. That we may well be headed for another crisis in the near future is perhaps too likely. The correlation with the Great Depression is not unfounded, people in 1929-1930 didn't really know what they had stepped off into at the time and government only made things worse for the next 10 years. There were many times that things seem to recover for a few months only to dive even deeper due to some bonehead legislation or natural crisis.

All of us are sick of voting the lesser of two evils into office but that may be an issue for latter elections as I am very sure we did not get the lesser this time based on the actions and appointments. Wow some of these people appointed as czars say things that are just crazy. I didn't understand how crazy until we started running down old video and such for storage so it doesn't just disappear like things on youtube tend to that embarrass the wrong people.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,281 Posts
32 appointed czars, so much for common ground. I'm so glad we the people have a say about who our leaders are. I wonder how much these czars are costing the tax payers? Funny I don't remember voting for all those people, Maybe we shouldn't even vote any more, since they don't care what we say anyhow! :mad:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Umm, I think they're in the processs of taking over the common ground and yeah it'll continue to spiral. One of the biggest investors/market players just left with his family for Singapore I believe it was. HE said that recovery wasn't possible and the US was gonna spiral into a third world economy.

So, is he wrong? So far the government has screwed up social security, the budget, gave away our tax dollars to bailouts regardless of what the people wanted and constantly assaulting the rights of its citizens. Orwellian at best but I've noticed they seem to fear us now that the unwashed masses are waking up.

They now own the banks, car industry, all water within the borders, and if they get medical care then I suppose the pharmecuticals can't be far behind right? Which btw is number three in capital profits. Cap and trade would give them outrageous taxes on all power generated from wind, oil, coal, etc. Thats alotta control.

Well, if nothing else you can't say its been a boring ride so far and, hey, Glenn Beck is back on tonite! :D X
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,331 Posts
Here is my attempt at common ground. I firmly believe that this health care issue needs to be resolved, however I am not entirely convinced that a government run system is the best/most viable option, nor do I think we should keep the status quo.

I think allowing citizens without health care to shop around for health plans nationwide would make it much more affordable. Say a person living in Atlanta could purchase an insurance plan from Nevada for a lesser rate than would be paid in Georgia, wouldn't that alleviate some of the burden? Secondly, perhaps there could be a partial tax credit to help defray the payer's cost.

Lastly, we have to get back to working together to find viable solutions to problems (common ground), this country used to have that ability, sadly we have abandoned it. Now we choose to demonize/name call those who disagree or have different ideas instead of sitting down and hashing out a compromise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,817 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
There a lot that could be done before running the country into the reef. Tort reform is a big one, its no accident it isnt even being given lip service.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,331 Posts
Tort reform is a big one, its no accident it isnt even being given lip service.
I'll stand right beside ya Rhodes on that, but there is too much money on both sides of the aisle i'm afraid, for us to ever get some real tort reform.

But I still have my hopes up for Loser Pays.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,817 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well dont blame the Repubs too much for this one the Trial Lawyers Assoc is a solidly Dem org. Every one I ever met, and that's a considerable number, were very die hard Dems.

Thats the group that handles malpractice suits and criminal defense among others. Tort reform would put them in the poor house. Every one together....AWWWWWW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,517 Posts
Tort reform does need to be a big part of health care reform but it won't happen. Anyone know what percentage of Senators and Representatives are lawyers? Not even a peep out of them on this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,817 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Actually been a lot of it just none from the side thats getting to write the bills. My Rep Cassidy told us every time they bring it up the room goes quiet. So much for bi-partisan.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,221 Posts
Our financial situation has been teetering for several years now. And with all the banks failing it on a downhill slide. FDIC is broke, We owe to much debt to other countries, Jobs are going byebye, and people can't pay their taxes that funds local,state,and federal government. People can't pay their loans, credit cards, or other bills. and THIS is just the beginning!! Farmers can't get the loans to buy seed and other things they need to grow crops as a result food is becoming a scarcity. Alot of places are having a drought and water is scarce and what is left states are battling each other to get it.

My mom and dad were children during the Great Depression and told me what it was like back then and 80% of the folks around today won't survive in the coming years
Most people survived the Great Depression, and most people i would think, would survive the crash of the American economy today. A lot of people will lose their houses ect. but most will find a way to survive.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,331 Posts
Actually been a lot of it just none from the side thats getting to write the bills. My Rep Cassidy told us every time they bring it up the room goes quiet. So much for bi-partisan.
It turns out to be partisan sometimes and bi-partisan sometimes when it comes up, guess it depends on the political weather. Like the Class Action Fairness Act of 05, O voted for it and it was a centerpiece of W's 2nd term. Or BMW vs. Gore (1996).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,817 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Actually been a lot of it just none from the side thats getting to write the bills. My Rep Cassidy told us every time they bring it up the room goes quiet. So much for bi-partisan.
It turns out to be partisan sometimes and bi-partisan sometimes when it comes up, guess it depends on the political weather. Like the Class Action Fairness Act of 05, O voted for it and it was a centerpiece of W's 2nd term. Or BMW vs. Gore (1996).
The 2005 CAF vote is a classic example where a congressman can be allowed to vote against the party line to improve his apparent voting record since his vote doesn't matter any way. You see this in a lot of votes that have a large margin involved.

BMW vs Gore was one of those meh things. The car had been repainted with no visible flaws or real damage to the car, the Dr. and the lawyers likely saw a good buck. These kinds of cases where there is no harm to the consumer are the worst kind of tripe. Dealers often will make small repairs to cars to correct shipment problems and if any real damage is involved tell the buyer.

Basically BOs idea of bi-partisan looks to be Republican capitulation. The more I learn about the way things work the dirtier I feel.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top