Hi-Point Firearms Forums banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Cobra FS-380, Raven MP-25
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I wasn't sure where else would be best to put this, but I personally love Saturday Night Specials and cheaper firearms in general, like my Cobra FS-380 and even some of the 9mm and .45s Cobra made among other guns. I've always pondered how I would go about designing one of these guns or how people purchase production tooling and designs from defunct companies and restart production with minor changes. Also how people manage to modify their existing guns using parts from others (like using a slide from one ring of fire gun on another). So in this hypothetical situation let's act as if we are the board/owners of our own company here.
Some things to keep in mind,
1. Cost per firearm retail shouldn't exceed roughly $150 (or known historical examples from recent history)
2. You can also make suggestions such as; "use the slide from X, extractor from Y, and..." so on and so forth.
3. Have fun and keep it civil, in the end this is more of a fun thought experiment!

Some starting questions to help spur thought:
-What material would you use?
-What caliber?
-Revolver? Semi Auto?
-Target size?

Have fun all and can't wait to see what people think of!
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
29,132 Posts
Not to poopoo your idea, but I think that Hi Point perfectly hits that sweet spot.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

·
Registered
Cobra FS-380, Raven MP-25
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Not to poopoo your idea, but I think that Hi Point perfectly hits that sweet spot.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
That's a valid stance to take I think, but I think the hi-points in some cases are starting to reach a higher price that I might myself hesitate to call SNS/Ring of fire, but I still like their guns.

If you were hi-point how would you go about designing a compact model in the vein of the MP-25 or similar models? Direct copy, borrow parts, or new design?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
25,805 Posts
That's a valid stance to take I think, but I think the hi-points in some cases are starting to reach a higher price that I might myself hesitate to call SNS/Ring of fire, but I still like their guns.

If you were hi-point how would you go about designing a compact model in the vein of the MP-25 or similar models? Direct copy, borrow parts, or new design?
You can't fault hi point for inflation in the market though. 10-12 years ago $150 would get you a NIB HP and a box of ammo all day long. MSRP on their handguns is still only $199. Around here they retail for over $200. That's not on HP.

You might be better served by having your fantasy build stick to the smaller caliber handguns, because the way HP is set up with their two frame size system they could drop just about any and every handgun caliber on the market by just changing the barrel, recoil spring, and magazine internals.
 

·
Registered
Cobra FS-380, Raven MP-25
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
You can't fault hi point for inflation in the market though. 10-12 years ago $150 would get you a NIB HP and a box of ammo all day long. MSRP on their handguns is still only $199. Around here they retail for over $200. That's not on HP.

You might be better served by having your fantasy build stick to the smaller caliber handguns, because the way HP is set up with their two frame size system they could drop just about any and every handgun caliber on the market by just changing the barrel, recoil spring, and magazine internals.
Fair point on inflation, I think you're right caliber wise. Probably be 380 acp and down. I do wonder what zamak they use and where any cost savings could be had (purely from a "buy in bulk" or other business decisions that would compromise safety).

Where do you think the new hi-point will land in relation to SNS/Ring of fire guns once released? A step outside of them or still in the same vein?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
29,132 Posts
That's a valid stance to take I think, but I think the hi-points in some cases are starting to reach a higher price that I might myself hesitate to call SNS/Ring of fire, but I still like their guns.

If you were hi-point how would you go about designing a compact model in the vein of the MP-25 or similar models? Direct copy, borrow parts, or new design?
You can't fault hi point for inflation in the market though. 10-12 years ago $150 would get you a NIB HP and a box of ammo all day long. MSRP on their handguns is still only $199. Around here they retail for over $200. That's not on HP.

You might be better served by having your fantasy build stick to the smaller caliber handguns, because the way HP is set up with their two frame size system they could drop just about any and every handgun caliber on the market by just changing the barrel, recoil spring, and magazine internals.
My parents paid $7,000 for their first house. It would now be valued (if they still owned it) somewhere around $100,000 to $120,000 today. Did the house become more valuable or did the dollar become less?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
29,132 Posts
I do wonder what zamak they use and where any cost savings could be had (purely from a "buy in bulk" or other business decisions that would compromise safety).
IMS, Hi Point uses ZAMAK 3, which is not necessarily the "strongest" ZAMAK alloy but it was chosen because HP set up shop in the middle of Ohio's automotive industry, leveraging the per-existing manufacturing and design infrastructure and knowledge base to drive costs down.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
25,805 Posts
Where do you think the new hi-point will land in relation to SNS/Ring of fire guns once released? A step outside of them or still in the same vein?
It depends on how YOU look at it. You might be of the opinion the HP's really don't count as a SNS because ~your reasons~.
 

·
Registered
Cobra FS-380, Raven MP-25
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
My parents paid $7,000 for their first house. It would now be valued (if they still owned it) somewhere around $100,000 to $120,000 today. Did the house become more valuable or did the dollar become less?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Though we are seeing higher inflation and the dollar become less valuable, we also have seen a rise in cost of living and little in the way of a raise in wages to compensate for the difference. Are there still enough offerings within the reach of individuals being squeezed by inflation and cost of living that would fulfill the SNS/Ring of fire phenomenon of being cheap self defense weapons? The more time that passes the more I hear people say that even a hi-point is too much for their wallet.

Thanks for joining this conversation as well!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
25,805 Posts
Also, the housing market isn't a good example of inflation because of the excessive amount of mitigating factors that determine value. Crime, school district, flocked wall paper... That and inflation is magnified in the housing market. I think the YOY is currently projected at 16% vs 7.9% and rising for the rest of the economy?
 

·
ROLL wif Da MOLE!
Joined
·
27,665 Posts
...because HP set up shop in the middle of Ohio's automotive industry, leveraging the per-existing manufacturing and design infrastructure and knowledge base to drive costs down...
It depends on how YOU look at it. You might be of the opinion the HP's really don't count as a SNS because ~your reasons~.
Welcome @Zamak-Zeppelin !!!

In my humble opinion, and with all due respect, it's a "Fool's Errand" if anyone were to undertake this, in real life. I'm glad you stated it was a thought exercise ;)

I have myself engaged in similar analysis, and came to a few unverified conclusions.

Kirk makes a great case for one of my conclusions, and that would be that a new start-up in SNS or Hi Point price range would be wise to get some decommissioned auto industry (or other) injection molding equipment, some MIM equipment and start making firearms. I've heard rumors that a MIM slide has been achieved and I'm not surprised, my old IRL machinist friend had built hot street engines using the stock Ford connecting rods from the modular engine series. Those were one of the first high stress applications for MIM parts.

As far as what @RACHGIER stated, IMO a Hi Point is either the cheapest of the good guns or the bestest of the SNS. Hence the name, Hi Point? ;)

Challenging Hi Point on their home turf will take a Herculean effort,
Not to poopoo your idea, but I think that Hi Point perfectly hits that sweet spot.
and the best case would be carving out a slice of the diminishing pie of that niche. So one is best served to take a new approach like I mapped out above, because the current manufacturers are already pressing Hi Point from above, and pressing them HARD. That pressure would be there for any new company trying to break thru.


I see that you left an opening for revolvers, very interesting

Whole 'nother demographic and class of product. But an interesting one!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
I have a receipt from someone paying $29.99 in 1972 for a Raven P-25. The inflation calculator tells me that is roughly $206 in today's money. Going from that I think the Hipoint C9 is the way to go... hands down. But but but, if I had to slap together a dream SNS and keep the price low (I'm going to stick with ~ $199 retail because that is a more realistic price point), I think I would develop a new polymer frame for the David P-32/P-380 series.

-What material would you use? Steel and polymer
-What caliber? 32 and 380 ACP
-Revolver? Semi Auto? The market is semi-auto
-Target size? Davis P-32 / P-380

There are other slight changes I would make to the design, I'm thinking a MIM'ed steel slide and steel frame insert to hold the barrel and fire control parts, but I think it could be made to work at around $199 (maybe a bit more, but not much). You would need a cheaper labor market than California (Ring of Fire) or Ohio (Hipoint), so I would likely set up in West Virginia or the rural-south. In .32 ACP the Davis (allegedly also a George Jennings design) is a fine gun, in .380 ACP there are issues with slide service life. Replacing the the ZAMAK on the gun would go a long way to eliminate the cracking problems in the .380 models and MIM offers a low cost (over the life of the tooling) way to get near-net steel parts. Diecast ZAMAK used to be an inexpensive but sufficiently strong material to work with, there are a lot of excellent alternatives now that don't suffer any of the drawbacks of ZAMAK.

While I love the idea of bringing back the Raven design .25 ACP is a caliber for gun collectors at this point. Unless ammo manufacturers abandon supporting the millions of .25 ACP/6.35 Browning pistols already in circulation no one will push .25 ACP to the pressures required to really sell it to the modern defensive market. All defensive ammo is instantly compared against 9mm Luger/NATO and .45 ACP... .25 ACP can't compete with either of those on any level (you could argue that no one wants to be shot so 9mm/.45 ACP levels of power normally aren't needed since most self defense with a handgun doesn't involve actually firing the gun, but lets say you have to). What made .25 ACP work for decades was that it was more reliable than .22 LR and was about as good as you could get in a tiny pistol, the latter isn't true anymore... for instance my Ruger LCP is a far more capable package than a Raven as are the Keltec P32 and P3AT. Frankly, the Ruger and Keltecs aren't much more than your SNS price range and they already do what I was thinking, except with tilting barrels that also act to reduce felt recoil.
 

·
ROLL wif Da MOLE!
Joined
·
27,665 Posts
I have a receipt from someone paying $29.99 in 1972 for a Raven P-25. The inflation calculator tells me that is roughly $206 in today's money. Going from that I think the Hipoint C9 is the way to go... hands down. But but but, if I had to slap together a dream SNS and keep the price low (I'm going to stick with ~ $199 retail because that is a more realistic price point), I think I would develop a new polymer frame for the David P-32/P-380 series.

-What material would you use? Steel and polymer
-What caliber? 32 and 380 ACP
-Revolver? Semi Auto? The market is semi-auto
-Target size? Davis P-32 / P-380

There are other slight changes I would make to the design, I'm thinking a MIM'ed steel slide and steel frame insert to hold the barrel and fire control parts, but I think it could be made to work at around $199 (maybe a bit more, but not much). You would need a cheaper labor market than California (Ring of Fire) or Ohio (Hipoint), so I would likely set up in West Virginia or the rural-south. In .32 ACP the Davis (allegedly also a George Jennings design) is a fine gun, in .380 ACP there are issues with slide service life. Replacing the the ZAMAK on the gun would go a long way to eliminate the cracking problems in the .380 models and MIM offers a low cost (over the life of the tooling) way to get near-net steel parts. Diecast ZAMAK used to be an inexpensive but sufficiently strong material to work with, there are a lot of excellent alternatives now that don't suffer any of the drawbacks of ZAMAK.

While I love the idea of bringing back the Raven design .25 ACP is a caliber for gun collectors at this point. Unless ammo manufacturers abandon supporting the millions of .25 ACP/6.35 Browning pistols already in circulation no one will push .25 ACP to the pressures required to really sell it to the modern defensive market. All defensive ammo is instantly compared against 9mm Luger/NATO and .45 ACP... .25 ACP can't compete with either of those on any level (you could argue that no one wants to be shot so 9mm/.45 ACP levels of power normally aren't needed since most self defense with a handgun doesn't involve actually firing the gun, but lets say you have to). What made .25 ACP work for decades was that it was more reliable than .22 LR and was about as good as you could get in a tiny pistol, the latter isn't true anymore... for instance my Ruger LCP is a far more capable package than a Raven as are the Keltec P32 and P3AT. Frankly, the Ruger and Keltecs aren't much more than your SNS price range and they already do what I was thinking, except with tilting barrels that also act to reduce felt recoil.
Parts of suburban Indiana could also support a mid-wage firearm facility, if health insurance was part of the package. Cost of living is (or was) quite reasonable here.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,533 Posts
I'm thinking that a laminated stamped steel pistol could be developed, something along the likes of the Sheridan Knocabout. However, the Knocabout is a single shot, and the downside of stamped steal would be the weight.
Trigger Font Air gun Gun accessory Gun barrel
 
  • Like
Reactions: undeRGRound

·
Registered
Cobra FS-380, Raven MP-25
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I'm thinking that a laminated stamped steel pistol could be developed, something along the likes of the Sheridan Knocabout. However, the Knocabout is a single shot, and the downside of stamped steal would be the weight.
View attachment 75745
Never heard of the Knockabout before, but its a really interesting firearm and it would be rather niche but useful at the same time. Stamped steel also seems overlooked a bit, probably for a reason like how you mentioned weight.
 

·
Registered
Cobra FS-380, Raven MP-25
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I have a receipt from someone paying $29.99 in 1972 for a Raven P-25. The inflation calculator tells me that is roughly $206 in today's money. Going from that I think the Hipoint C9 is the way to go... hands down. But but but, if I had to slap together a dream SNS and keep the price low (I'm going to stick with ~ $199 retail because that is a more realistic price point), I think I would develop a new polymer frame for the David P-32/P-380 series.

-What material would you use? Steel and polymer
-What caliber? 32 and 380 ACP
-Revolver? Semi Auto? The market is semi-auto
-Target size? Davis P-32 / P-380

There are other slight changes I would make to the design, I'm thinking a MIM'ed steel slide and steel frame insert to hold the barrel and fire control parts, but I think it could be made to work at around $199 (maybe a bit more, but not much). You would need a cheaper labor market than California (Ring of Fire) or Ohio (Hipoint), so I would likely set up in West Virginia or the rural-south. In .32 ACP the Davis (allegedly also a George Jennings design) is a fine gun, in .380 ACP there are issues with slide service life. Replacing the the ZAMAK on the gun would go a long way to eliminate the cracking problems in the .380 models and MIM offers a low cost (over the life of the tooling) way to get near-net steel parts. Diecast ZAMAK used to be an inexpensive but sufficiently strong material to work with, there are a lot of excellent alternatives now that don't suffer any of the drawbacks of ZAMAK.

While I love the idea of bringing back the Raven design .25 ACP is a caliber for gun collectors at this point. Unless ammo manufacturers abandon supporting the millions of .25 ACP/6.35 Browning pistols already in circulation no one will push .25 ACP to the pressures required to really sell it to the modern defensive market. All defensive ammo is instantly compared against 9mm Luger/NATO and .45 ACP... .25 ACP can't compete with either of those on any level (you could argue that no one wants to be shot so 9mm/.45 ACP levels of power normally aren't needed since most self defense with a handgun doesn't involve actually firing the gun, but lets say you have to). What made .25 ACP work for decades was that it was more reliable than .22 LR and was about as good as you could get in a tiny pistol, the latter isn't true anymore... for instance my Ruger LCP is a far more capable package than a Raven as are the Keltec P32 and P3AT. Frankly, the Ruger and Keltecs aren't much more than your SNS price range and they already do what I was thinking, except with tilting barrels that also act to reduce felt recoil.
I like your choice of reincarnating a prior design and also how you got into the labor market side of things, something I forgot about entirely. West Virginia seems like a good potential place to start up with a presumably low corporate tax rate and readily available land and such for cheap. Do you think in our modern times that 32 acp would sway enough consumers or are there too many other options, like how you mentioned at the end of your post. Overall I really like the direction you picked, especially with the MIM slide.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
I like your choice of reincarnating a prior design and also how you got into the labor market side of things, something I forgot about entirely. West Virginia seems like a good potential place to start up with a presumably low corporate tax rate and readily available land and such for cheap. Do you think in our modern times that 32 acp would sway enough consumers or are there too many other options, like how you mentioned at the end of your post. Overall I really like the direction you picked, especially with the MIM slide.
Modern .32 ACP is suitable as a defensive round, it's not great, but it would do and is better than not having a gun at all. I guess the thinking these days is that it's important to penetrate and hit organs given the failure of many sub-9mm Luger class hollow points to fully expand. In that case 22LR can be pretty lethal, but 32 ACP has killed plenty and would work for most defensive needs.
 

·
ROLL wif Da MOLE!
Joined
·
27,665 Posts
Isn't 32acp close in size to the "new" 30SC round? 32 cal was using the old case sizing method, correct? Just thinking out loud.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top