Do You See Pistol Caliber Formulated For Carbines?

Discussion in 'Caliber Zone' started by TNTRAILERTRASH, Nov 3, 2014.

  1. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    Most of the major arms manufacturers are making pistol caliber carbines.I know there is .357 designed for lever action carbines. The .22lr CCI Stinger is formulated for 16-18" barrels for best velocities.

    Anyone got their ear to the grapevine? :)
     
  2. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    I say no.

    Unlike the .357, there are lots of 9mm guns that simply aren't up to the task of handling extra hot ammo. And there already are over pressure loads available.

    The .40 and .45 have the same issues, I believe, though more limited over pressure choices.

    To me the best move they could make would be to simply repackage an existing +P or +P+ as a carbine load, specify the velocity out if a 16 inch barrel to show the increased velocity and energy, and advertise the heck out of it.

    Funny thing, of course, often the real operators want slower stuff, so suppression works right. Which is why they like the bigger bullets, if you go slow, you gotta go heavy to get penetration.
     

  3. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    Not being an expert here in propellants I think what I was asking for is not necessarily a hotter load. Just one that burns slower and continues pushing it out the barrel longer? The Stinger is a longer cartridge/lighter bullet/slower burn. It's a waste in my 3" barreled S&W, not to mention the 2" 61 Escort.

    The charges in much of the pistol ammo is designed for what? 3-6" barrels?
     
  4. Rerun

    Rerun Supporting Member

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    If it's a revolver bullet (.38 Special, .357 Magnum) the test gun has a six inch barrel;

    If it's a semiauto pistol (9mm, .45ACP) the test gun will have either a 4 inch or 5 inch barrel.

    eldar
     
  5. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Yeah, I get that. Though I'm not sure the stinger has slower burning powder, despite WIki's claim. Besides, normal .22 increases velocity up to about 19 inches...is a slower burning powder really going to help that?

    The little pistol case only has so much room, a slower burning powder may not work well. Even the stinger uses a slightly longer case.
     
  6. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    I was party to that info before Wiki was around. When I bought my first pistol in '89 or '90 that was the info I read, or was told when I bought it. I wasn't into gun magazines so who knows? Stingers have been around a long time.
     
  7. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Sure...and I heard it was just MORE powder, so who's hearsay non-evidence is correct?:p

    I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying we can't be certain.
     
  8. The problem is case capacity, slower powder tends to have a much higher volume for the desired powder. A 357 load with W296 will fill the case completely, and the load should not be lightened. Long shot works well out of both pistols and rifles. Performance +P factory loading tend to be a slower powder to obtain desired velocity without going over the pressure threshold.

    As far as the stinger, there is a certain amount of velocity loss from a shorter barrel. Higher velocity will have about the same loss as standard velocity. 14,000 stinger will probably be around 1,000 out of a 5 inch barrel. 12,000 standard velocity would be around 800 FPS out of 5 inch barrel.

    I use long shot in my 38 spl 125 grain loads for a snub. In a 4 inch that would be around 1100 FPS, in the 2 inch it drops to 900 FPS.
     
  9. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    Trash, you really need to look at BBTI (ballistics by the inch)

    MOST Pistol Bullets max out around 16" barrels, and many drop a bit at 17"
    Some recover a bit at 18" then resume velocity losses at 19" but not all. The HP calibers all seem pretty closely matched to the carbine length barrels.

    One of the best examples:

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
     
  10. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Yeah, but he's saying maybe something specifically targeting the 16 inch barrel could be better.

    I think it could, I'm just not convinced the market would pay enough to make it worthwhile.

    Which is why I suggested re-purposing a+P+, and getting a buzz going with the numbers from a 16 inch barrel.
     
  11. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    I know that You know that We Both know IT. ;)


    Most of the great strides (lately) have been made in the faster burning short-barrel loads, specifically the development of the 22WMR SD loadings. I forget the brand, but it was a faster burning powder and the target lengths were around 6" barrels. It was a fascinating article, and I need to revisit it. My IIRC on this one is poor, I may have referenced in error.
     
  12. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    Time for bed.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz will reread this later...........zzzzzzzzzz:)
     
  13. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    Any new developments, TNT?
     
  14. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    I ain't heard a thing! Must be double secret stuff!
     
  15. Dane

    Dane Supporting Member

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    There is more to it than just a longer barrel. The breech design comes into play. Longer barrels on a 'blow back' design can't benefit from the slower powder. A locking bolt type is needed to benefit from a longer barrel.
     
  16. Johnny_B_Goode

    Johnny_B_Goode Member

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    The powder charge is just fine for carbine barrels. We need more durable bullets for carbines. I shoot 9mm from a carbine. When you go to youtube and look for carbine gelatin tests the hollow point bullet over expands. This over expansion creates to much friction that actually prevents the bullet from penetrating as deeply as a pistol. All we can do is use the largest bullets that are +p rated we can get our hands on. I just ordered some 135gr critical duty. I want to shoot critical duty in my pistol and I hope they stay together at carbine velocities.

    If you pay attention expanding 223/5.56x45 bullets do exactly the same thing. A 223 soft point will only penetrate 10" in gelatin with 4 layers of denim. You start seeing the 223 penetrate when large bullets are used that slow velocity to around 2,700 fps.

    The upside to all of this is a blob of ballistic gelatin has never attacked anyone. Until we shoot something with skin, flesh and bones we do not know what a carbine will do. I am sure one of use will find something that is more realistic to try the carbine on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2014
  17. planosteve

    planosteve Lifetime Supporter

    That is why a 45 230gr HP is good. It is still slow out of a carbine so it works fine.
     
  18. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Hard-cast, spoon-tip.

    Peace favor your sword (mobile)
     
  19. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

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    I did not see a real advantage to spoon tip in a ballistics gel video.
    Can you explain what it does, Kirk?
     
  20. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    I can't find the vids of spoon tip testing. I heard the use them on moose.