[Fourboxes]

The thing I hate about the welfare system is that it makes people lazy. As long as they can sit on their fat asses watching the boob tube and get paid enough money to pay their rent, utilities and pay for food, what motivation do they have to get off their ass and get a job? What sense of pride does it instill in them or their children, who I guarantee are watching their parents, wondering WTF they are thinking to do nothing with their lives?

Seems to me that welfare didn't make you or your mom lazy.

I agree that the system needs to include motivation for people to get off their ass and get a job. For most people, the same of not providing is enough to do it, for others the system needs to do a better job of discouraging multi-generational leeches.

 

[PrimalSeal]

Again, it's a pride thing. I have to further thank my Mom for instilling that sense of pride in me at an early age. She always told us that it was tough right then, but it wouldn't always be so.

 

[lailr]

Sorry to hear that primal, I feel for you.


P.S. how can you not like that gov'ment cheese? That stuff rocks

 

[PrimalSeal]

Not the stuff we got in Minnesota, that stuff tasted like crap and plugged your intestines up for a week!

 

[Fourboxes]

Again, it's a pride thing. I have to further thank my Mom for instilling that sense of pride in me at an early age. She always told us that it was tough right then, but it wouldn't always be so.

I grew up in a similar situation, except that my mom wasn't healthy enough to go back to college and work. Sometimes we got by on just disability insurance payments, sometimes we qualified for government assistance. The rules on who qualified, and for how much seemed to change a lot. We'd get a letter saying "hey we raised your benefits by 10%" and then 6 months later get another saying "Hey, we overpaid you for 6 months, this check is going to be half what you are used to". (I think I've heard similar stories from my friends in the military)

Going to the grocery store by myself with foodstamps and 400 coupons was hard. It wasn't the shame and the pride that made me never want to be in a situation like that, it was the utter crappyness of being poor. Managing each trip to the store as if your ability to be well fed for the next month depended on your budget-fu is horrible. An unexpected dr visit meaning that you can't have heat for the next month sucks.

Althought, if I"m really honest with myself, it was the shame and the pride that made me hate getting free school lunches. (Also, the quality of the free school lunches)

 

[PrimalSeal]

The free school lunches weren't that bad, as everyone had lunch tickets, and they were all the same. So, no matter if you paid for it or got them free, nobody could tell the difference.

I think the most embarassing thing that ever happened to me during that time was my Mom sending me in the store with foodstamps to pay for some stuff, and my girlfriend walked up behind me in the checkout line. I had to pretend that I'd forgotten something just so she wouldn't see me with that damn coupon book. She asked me about it later, and I didn't say anything but I know she knew what was up.

 

[hummelsander]

Hey guys. I have to admit, I have taken unemployment for a brief time. I took two checks. The hoops a guy has to jump through to take the checks is sometimes harder than actually going out and getting a job. That said, employers pay out for both state unemployment and federal unemployment. They pay this out to the government. This is money that could go into our pockets and be saved or invested as a "rainy day fund". It's matching. The employee pays out and then the employer matches it. The percentage is irrelevent as t he money could be invested by individuals instead of being intrusted to the government.

Long story, since we pay into it, we should be able to take some of it in the form of unemployment or disability. I wish it was different but it's not.

 

[bomber101581]

I dont know what planet you live on that churches provide health insurance. we didn't need a monetary handout, we needed healthcare to cover the thousands and thousands of dollars to cover prenatal care and the birth. do you know how much it costs to give birth in a hospital without insurance? do you know how much an ultrasound costs without insurance?

There are actually several hospitals run by religous organizations all over the country that help in this exact circumstance. They provided discounted rates and long term payment plans. Many also even forgive entire bills for those who can't afford them. Almost the exact situation my brother faced about a year and a half ago.

and what kind of burdern would be placed on these hospitals if things like medicaid did not exist? i seriously doubt they could handle that patient load.

 

[Fourboxes]

I dont know what planet you live on that churches provide health insurance. we didn't need a monetary handout, we needed healthcare to cover the thousands and thousands of dollars to cover prenatal care and the birth. do you know how much it costs to give birth in a hospital without insurance? do you know how much an ultrasound costs without insurance?

There are actually several hospitals run by religous organizations all over the country that help in this exact circumstance. They provided discounted rates and long term payment plans. Many also even forgive entire bills for those who can't afford them. Almost the exact situation my brother faced about a year and a half ago.

and what kind of burdern would be placed on these hospitals if things like medicaid did not exist? i seriously doubt they could handle that patient load.

Not too much in the long run, as the hospitals owned by the big insurance companies will soon finish the job of driving them out of business.

 

[bomber101581]

I dont know what planet you live on that churches provide health insurance. we didn't need a monetary handout, we needed healthcare to cover the thousands and thousands of dollars to cover prenatal care and the birth. do you know how much it costs to give birth in a hospital without insurance? do you know how much an ultrasound costs without insurance?

There are actually several hospitals run by religous organizations all over the country that help in this exact circumstance. They provided discounted rates and long term payment plans. Many also even forgive entire bills for those who can't afford them. Almost the exact situation my brother faced about a year and a half ago.

and what kind of burdern would be placed on these hospitals if things like medicaid did not exist? i seriously doubt they could handle that patient load.

Not too much in the long run, as the hospitals owned by the big insurance companies will soon finish the job of driving them out of business.

man fourboxes, you always seem to have the perfect answer (that's not sarcasm, i'm serious).

speaking of insurance companies and all that, i just have to vent for a second. last month my father in law had a pretty serious kidney stone with a secondary infection. he was in incredible pain, and he is not a wimp (he's not superman, he's just not a wimp). anyway, after 36 hours in the hospital, they basically kicked him to the curb with 5 painkillers (not 5 different kinds, i mean 5 pills) and told him if it gets bad (which it already was) to come back. why? well because the hospital only makes so much money if you are insured, they know the insurance company is only going to pay so much for a hospital stay, so the hospital wants to move patients out. at the same time, there is a $1500 co pay for my father in law for every hospital admittance. so instead of going back to the hospital, he just stayed in bed for 4 days until he passed the stone, laying there in excrutiating pain, barely using the pain meds because he barely had enough to get through one day. anyway, thats just one of many stories I have about Kaiser, i freakin hate that company. but, its the best i can get, so i fork over 10% of my salary every month to them. its a crime

 

[godlessdustin]

When that situation happens you shouldn't go to the government for help. You go to family and close personal friends, if they can't help you turn to you church or community for help. If the government didn't take a third of my income to pay for social services I would have even more to give to charity to help out people in those exact situations. "We the People" is the solution to so many problems in this country. Every time something goes wrong we shouldn't turn to the government to fix it. The government is the problem not the solution.

That sir just strait stooooopid, close friends, family, churches, and community are not obligated in any way to help you out in the hard times, there has to be systems in place to ensure that people can survive. "we the people" are greedy as f*ck, and there are a shat load of us that wont give a dime to charity.

 

[Strangerous]

Ouch Dustin,
Not to sound mean, but here it goes:
Here is a short list of folks who help families out on a daily basis, and do it out of humility:

The Masons - That's right, your local Masonic lodge will help just about anyone... and they don't take out a 2 page ad in the newspaper to brag about it either. This is little-known to those who don't know any1 who is a Mason.

The Shriners - You must be a Mason before you can go to the Shrine. The Shriner's have their own hospitals, and are very quick to help those without insurance to get medicated/operated. They are especially generous to children and young adults. (I always buy those almond bars they sell at the store, and give them to the next kid I see coming into the store.)

The Church - Churches love to help people in their community, but be aware that this is only a short-time deal, as the
church has bills to pay just like you and me. A Church will normally help with rent/mortgage, food, power, and water. Do not think that you will be issued a debit card and get to spend how you see fit.

Soup Kitchens - It isn't the best food in the world, but if you and your family are hungry, you will eat. Do not feel ashamed for eating at a soup kitchen, the construction workers who are being "cheap" and eating at the soup kitchen are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves.

The Neighbors - If you live in a tight-knit community, you may be able to receive a little help from those around you. You may be able to "earn" money from them instead of asking for "help". Cutting grass, raking leaves, washing cars, cleaning gutters, painting things, or walking dogs all come to mind that can be done in a neighborhood situation.

 

[godlessdustin]

Ouch Dustin,
Not to sound mean, but here it goes:
Here is a short list of folks who help families out on a daily basis, and do it out of humility:

The Masons - That's right, your local Masonic lodge will help just about anyone... and they don't take out a 2 page ad in the newspaper to brag about it either. This is little-known to those who don't know any1 who is a Mason.

The Shriners - You must be a Mason before you can go to the Shrine. The Shriner's have their own hospitals, and are very quick to help those without insurance to get medicated/operated. They are especially generous to children and young adults. (I always buy those almond bars they sell at the store, and give them to the next kid I see coming into the store.)

The Church - Churches love to help people in their community, but be aware that this is only a short-time deal, as the
church has bills to pay just like you and me. A Church will normally help with rent/mortgage, food, power, and water. Do not think that you will be issued a debit card and get to spend how you see fit.

Soup Kitchens - It isn't the best food in the world, but if you and your family are hungry, you will eat. Do not feel ashamed for eating at a soup kitchen, the construction workers who are being "cheap" and eating at the soup kitchen are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves.

The Neighbors - If you live in a tight-knit community, you may be able to receive a little help from those around you. You may be able to "earn" money from them instead of asking for "help". Cutting grass, raking leaves, washing cars, cleaning gutters, painting things, or walking dogs all come to mind that can be done in a neighborhood situation.

tThe thing is some people live in rural areas and you can rule out every single one of those organisations, save the churches, but like you said, they have their own bills to pay. I agree that the system needs to be reformed because I just like everyone else is sick of people abusing it but the system has to be there. On another note, I dont know if churches and other organisations help people out that wont conform to their ideals, i.e. if someone is an atheist and everybody and their brother knows it will a church help them out?

 

[Strangerous]

yes, and believe me when i tell you that they will undertake you as their pet project to show you the power of christ/buddah/thor/ra/etc.

 

[bomber101581]

Ouch Dustin,
Not to sound mean, but here it goes:
Here is a short list of folks who help families out on a daily basis, and do it out of humility:

The Masons - That's right, your local Masonic lodge will help just about anyone... and they don't take out a 2 page ad in the newspaper to brag about it either. This is little-known to those who don't know any1 who is a Mason.

The Shriners - You must be a Mason before you can go to the Shrine. The Shriner's have their own hospitals, and are very quick to help those without insurance to get medicated/operated. They are especially generous to children and young adults. (I always buy those almond bars they sell at the store, and give them to the next kid I see coming into the store.)

The Church - Churches love to help people in their community, but be aware that this is only a short-time deal, as the
church has bills to pay just like you and me. A Church will normally help with rent/mortgage, food, power, and water. Do not think that you will be issued a debit card and get to spend how you see fit.

Soup Kitchens - It isn't the best food in the world, but if you and your family are hungry, you will eat. Do not feel ashamed for eating at a soup kitchen, the construction workers who are being "cheap" and eating at the soup kitchen are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves.

The Neighbors - If you live in a tight-knit community, you may be able to receive a little help from those around you. You may be able to "earn" money from them instead of asking for "help". Cutting grass, raking leaves, washing cars, cleaning gutters, painting things, or walking dogs all come to mind that can be done in a neighborhood situation.

but all those people are not going to pay your tens of thousands of dollars of medical bills. they don't have the resources. even if they helped the occasional person, they wouldn't have the ability to take care of all the poor in this country.

 

[Fourboxes]

Ouch Dustin,
Not to sound mean, but here it goes:
Here is a short list of folks who help families out on a daily basis, and do it out of humility:

The Masons - That's right, your local Masonic lodge will help just about anyone... and they don't take out a 2 page ad in the newspaper to brag about it either. This is little-known to those who don't know any1 who is a Mason.

The Shriners - You must be a Mason before you can go to the Shrine. The Shriner's have their own hospitals, and are very quick to help those without insurance to get medicated/operated. They are especially generous to children and young adults. (I always buy those almond bars they sell at the store, and give them to the next kid I see coming into the store.)

The Church - Churches love to help people in their community, but be aware that this is only a short-time deal, as the
church has bills to pay just like you and me. A Church will normally help with rent/mortgage, food, power, and water. Do not think that you will be issued a debit card and get to spend how you see fit.

Soup Kitchens - It isn't the best food in the world, but if you and your family are hungry, you will eat. Do not feel ashamed for eating at a soup kitchen, the construction workers who are being "cheap" and eating at the soup kitchen are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves.

The Neighbors - If you live in a tight-knit community, you may be able to receive a little help from those around you. You may be able to "earn" money from them instead of asking for "help". Cutting grass, raking leaves, washing cars, cleaning gutters, painting things, or walking dogs all come to mind that can be done in a neighborhood situation.

but all those people are not going to pay your tens of thousands of dollars of medical bills. they don't have the resources. even if they helped the occasional person, they wouldn't have the ability to take care of all the poor in this country.

This is one of the problems with government public housing programs. By herding so many poor people together, the community doesn't have resources. In a less segregated population there are more resources to go around. Most churches around where I live have resources to help people, and want to do it.

A few people in my church have lost their jobs recently, I've been cutting them rent checks for the past few months (I volunteer to help the church with its financial records/stuff). The church can afford to do it because we have a diverse congregation, if we were a church located strictly in a ghetto, it'd be a different story.

 

[Thadius15]

That sir just strait stooooopid, close friends, family, churches, and community are not obligated in any way to help you out in the hard times, there has to be systems in place to ensure that people can survive. "we the people" are greedy as f*ck, and there are a shat load of us that wont give a dime to charity.

I think you would be really suprised at the amount of charitable contributions that are made in this country. In 2006 the most recent year I can find data for Americans gave almost $300 billion to non-profits. That amounted to about 2.2 percent of after tax income. I think that if Americans were taxed less they would give even more. Another thing left out of that number is the amount of time and labor volunteers "gave" to charities. The Founding Fathers wrote "We the People" not "We the Government".

 

[bomber101581]

That sir just strait stooooopid, close friends, family, churches, and community are not obligated in any way to help you out in the hard times, there has to be systems in place to ensure that people can survive. "we the people" are greedy as f*ck, and there are a shat load of us that wont give a dime to charity.

I think you would be really suprised at the amount of charitable contributions that are made in this country. In 2006 the most recent year I can find data for Americans gave almost $300 billion to non-profits. That amounted to about 2.2 percent of after tax income. I think that if Americans were taxed less they would give even more. Another thing left out of that number is the amount of time and labor volunteers "gave" to charities. The Founding Fathers wrote "We the People" not "We the Government".

in 2007 the federal govt (a "lean" year), not including what every state contributed, spent 1.622 trillion on social healthcare and welfare, including medicaid, medicare, social security and VA benefits. I doubt the American public could kick in that much money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007

 

[Fourboxes]

in 2007 the federal govt (a "lean" year), not including what every state contributed, spent 1.622 trillion on social healthcare and welfare, including medicaid, medicare, social security and VA benefits. I doubt the American public could kick in that much money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007

If healthcare moved away from insurance or gov't programs youd' see spending go way down. Most of what we spend is to eek a year or two extra out of someone who is very, very likely to die soon. If the lion's share of the cost were placed on the idividual, their family or their community, you'd see more people moving into things like hospice care.

I don't know if that's a good or bad thing for the country, but for me, if I have the choice between living to 65 and dying when its evident my time is near, or living to 70 after spending tens and hundreds of thousands on those last 5 years, I'd like to think I'm man enough to go at 65.

 

[bomber101581]

in 2007 the federal govt (a "lean" year), not including what every state contributed, spent 1.622 trillion on social healthcare and welfare, including medicaid, medicare, social security and VA benefits. I doubt the American public could kick in that much money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007

If healthcare moved away from insurance or gov't programs youd' see spending go way down. Most of what we spend is to eek a year or two extra out of someone who is very, very likely to die soon. If the lion's share of the cost were placed on the idividual, their family or their community, you'd see more people moving into things like hospice care.

I don't know if that's a good or bad thing for the country, but for me, if I have the choice between living to 65 and dying when its evident my time is near, or living to 70 after spending tens and hundreds of thousands on those last 5 years, I'd like to think I'm man enough to go at 65.

i'd like to think i'm man enough to go at any moment :rip: