Front Sight Reality Check - A Shooting Analyzed

Discussion in 'General Firearms Discussion' started by 1024Megabytes, Mar 28, 2015.

  1. Below is a police shooting that happened with a thug in Brazil. See the actual video and analyze the tactics used.

  2. bluharley

    bluharley Member

    I've wondered about that. Let's say some nutbag starts shooting people indiscriminately but I'm behind him. Do I yell out "Hey @sshole" and draw fire justifying self defense, or shoot him in the back? Or, option 3, run and hide? I doubt I could do option 3.

  3. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

    Well, it seems that some really wise individual on the Internet came up with a plan that could work in this scenario. I think that many of us know of the illustrious Gecko45:

  4. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member

    lol..... Why do we look any further for tac advice, when we got the master to draw from...
  5. bluharley

    bluharley Member

    That's all well and good, but I am always alone, so I wouldn't have the benefit of a SO with a long rifle! Being on my own, I think I would have to see what he's doing once in my sites, is he shooting or just hanging? I'm sure I'd have all the time in the world to figure it all out and make the best decision.;)
  6. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    There is quite a lot of Monday morning quarter backing here.
    It's all nice and easy nitpicking your way through a security video.
    I personally thought closing the distance to BG1 was smart, reduce the chances of a miss.
    Then Mr Voice over talks about the morality of shooting somebody who has not produced a gun (yet) and shooting at somebody who is running away after he's shot you in the back.
    Well, he was criticized for not shooting twice at BG1.
    The whole thing comes across as being a lot of 'know-it-all'.
    But hey....that's just my 02 cents
  7. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

    I concur with SWAGA. The narrator nitpicks excessively. The first thing that he mentioned was about how quickly the police officer drew his weapon. Quite frankly, I Don't think that he was having a problem drawing it. It actually looked like he was trying to decide if circumstances were right for him to draw. As far as closing the distance goes, if it's possible to make for a better shot when a lot of innocent bystanders are next to the bad guy, then it's probably a good idea to close the distance in order to pop him.
  8. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member

    I think closing distance is a correct move.... Better chance of hitting, possibly unnerving bad guy and causing him to miss or trip up... To me if you're in that spot, the time for retreating or hiding is past, move aggressively to end things quickly... But I'm no tactical genius... I work through problems to the quickest solution.
  9. bluharley

    bluharley Member

    I've always thought you pull the trigger twice. But, for me, it would probably all be over before I noticed a problem!
  10. I personally had no problem with the police officer closing the distance to shoot the thug. He should have fired two rounds though because handgun rounds have a lack of stopping power though. He also should have not turned his back on the thug.

    I don't think I would attempt to take the thug's gun away. Likely I would just cover him with my pistol until more help arrived while demanding he drop his handgun. This policeman may suffer from awful wounds the rest of his life because he turned his back on an armed bad guy.
  11. moona11

    moona11 King of you Monkeys Lifetime Supporter

    To me getting advice from this guy is like getting advice from some other expert who travels around the country selling books ad out it but has never ever been in a gun fight. On a another note one of my buddies just finished training with Sonny the former Soviet SF and he said that he was the real deal. Now my buddy trains people all over the world and he said he couldn't touch Sonny. Dudes a bad ass. Do believe I need a trip to Texas for some training. He's in Dallas so Flash might be down there next year buddy. Did some say pig hunt;-)
  12. shepherd321

    shepherd321 Supporting Member

    Was the police officer paralyzed?
  13. sdbrit68

    sdbrit68 Supporting Member

    My 2 cents here

    1) bagging on the officer for still having the groceries ?.....we have no clue if it was twisted up in his hand, which could also be the reason for the longer draw
    2) saying his students draw faster, well, how many of them would wet their pants when the shooting starts
    3) his one hand grip, could it be the grocery bag ?
    4) not taking time to verify bad guy is dead, well, he is a cop, he has a duty to make sure all the bad guys are down, and he is responsible for the citizens, much different than you or I
    5) not taking cover, well some of those convenience stores are small, there may not have been any, and the bad guys already showed they will kill.

    as someone, said, too muc Monday morning quarterbacking going on. Me, at that close, I would take out BG1, then stay in the store with cover behind the counter
  14. Keep in mind Front Sight is a business, and of course their students would be better than anyone who has never been one of their students. They are in business, like most businesses, to make money.

    That said this incident was not in the states, who knows how the officer was trained. I have no problem with the fact that the officer fired at the man who just shot him. I don't see a lawsuit, or any criminal act from that. I do agree he should not have turned his back, but then it was in the heat of the moment.

    And anybody can draw faster while facing a piece of paper. He may very well have been not trying to bring attention to his move. Ya know discretion, so he does not get shot before he gets his gun out.
  15. TRWXXA

    TRWXXA Member

    You can dedinately question the legality of the officer's actions, as you apply OUR laws to them. However, many cities in Brazil are unbelieveably crime-ridden s***holes that make the worst neighborhoods in Chicago and New York City look like Sesame Street. I'm not so certain that there are any repercussions for shooting a murderous criminal in the back, or dispatching his cohorts similarly.

    It's not all that long ago when our police were allowed to shoot at fleeing felons. To a lesser extent they still can, if that fleeing felon presents a threat to the life and health of others. An armed criminal flees police by running towards the entrance of a day care center... Drop him!

    Hey... If you think the best option is to GTFO, then GTFO! Even armed, you have no obligation to save anyone but yourself. However, should you elect to take out the bad guy in Bluharley's scenario, there is no reason to get his attention focused on you before you shoot. Almost all self-defense laws allow for the defense of third parties too. You will have to reasonably articulate to the police (and perhaps a jury too) why you felt the bad guy's actions justified the use of deadly force. A dirtbag pointing a gun at a person's head certainly qualifies in my neck of the woods.

    In this video, the fact that the cretin forced a person trying to leave back into the store is also an indication of the level of threat. Really bad things are often the result of criminals controlling the movement of victims. I heard one personal protection expert say, "Don't ever go with the criminal." Your chances of winding up dead are greater, than if you fight and run. If the thug doesn't want you to leave, he might not want you to leave, EVER!

    The cop's draw was slow (looks like he had his gun a little TOO concealed), but I'm not sure a faster draw would have changed the outcome much. It does look like he was reluctant to put down his grocery bag, and he did miss an opportunity to disarm the crook (and even get the satisfaction of shooting him with his own gun). It's a relatively simple move that I have even taught my mother to do. It's not movie ninja stuff. It's 70 year old lady stuff. And any moderately well trained police officer should know it.

    One shot is a definate fail. The standard response is a quick two to center mass. If that doesn't drop 'em, then another shot to brain housing group.

    Once the threat does go down, DO NOT turn your back on it. Keep the gun at a low-ready and scan for more threats. Douchebags travel in packs.

    They also rise from the dead like zombies. Just because they are down doesn't mean they're gonna stay that way. The shot person's body goes into an initial shock. A quick loss of blood pressure takes blood from the brain and the person drops. Once they're down, and barring an instantly fatal wound, the body starts to fight back against the injuries, and blood pressure goes back up. Their low position can allow blood to flow back to the head, and they wake up again. And they might be a little pissed off when they do. In the notorious 1986 Miami FBI shootout, one of the bad guys managed to wound and kill FBI agents AFTER he had already sustained a mortal wound. They guy was dead. His body just didn't know it yet.

    Even if you think they're dead, unless you are a doctor or paramedic who can verify that, then don't bet your life on it. Some law enforcement agencies will still handcuff a creep they just snuffed.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
  16. moona11

    moona11 King of you Monkeys Lifetime Supporter

    You can still shoot a asshat in the back. Its easy to arm chair quarterback the guy but remember you weren't there so you do not know how you would react. 1 shot or 20 shots someone would find a reason to say how he messed up. drop the bag didn't drop the bag really. The guy just saw someone shot and his mind is going a million miles a second fight or flight has kicked in and all fine motor skill is gone he did a great job considering what he and the rest in the store experience.;)
  17. Outlaw

    Outlaw Supporting Member

    What would I have done? Now let me think about this......Damn, too late, I'm dead. Arm chair quarterbacking is easy. Imagine just standing there on guard duty on the perimeter and you hear millisecond long hiss sound by your head and a crack sound half a second later coming from somewhere in the jungle. If you hadn't experienced it before, then your mind will pause for a second and you will think "what was that". Then the realization of it hits you and you hit the dirt. I'm sure a little of this went thru the cops mind. It's just something you don't expect to happen at that moment. As far a drawing his weapon, I agree it may have been buried a little deeper than he would have likde it to be. Then again, he was off duty. I won't even begin to try and interpret the cops actions. He was there, not me. No clue what I would have done, other than never go with the guy anywhere.

    I stopped in to Front Sight last year on a trip to Vegas. Yes, it's quite a ways from Vegas. Bout an hours drive if I remember correctly. I bought a 3 day class for two a couple years ago from a friend. Just didn't have time to use it then. The place is clean, neat. lots of shooting ranges, plus long range rifle ranges. Just remember to bring everything you need on the way or bring a lot of cash with you. $25-30 buck for a souvenir hat for example. Their sales store is pricey. But, you would expect that out in the middle of BFE. Casino and hotel/motel accommodation within 10 minutes though. I just may go this year. Much later in the year when it cools down. We were there in July and it was 95 degrees at 10 AM the day we were there. It didn't bother me a lot as I was stationed at Nellis AFB in Vegas for a couple years, plus stationed in Tucson, AZ 3 years prior to that. I also shot skeet for the AF in Phoenix one summer when it was almost 100 degrees. You simply couldn't touch your barrels at any time during the course. It do git warm down thar folks :eek:
  18. TRWXXA

    TRWXXA Member

    I think we can legitimately armchair quarterback this one. The subject is a law enforcememt officer, and can (and should) be held to a higher standard.

    The one-handed shooting doesn't bother me like it does the video moderator, but drop the groceries for crying out loud! Free up that other hand. You can use it for shooting, or clearing a path of escape, or moving others out of rhe way to get a clear shot on the bad guy. During a ride-along, I saw a rookie officer get soundly critiqued by his FTO for approching a car with something (it was either his flashlight or ticket book --I was hanging two cars back) in his strong side hand. It's that kind of detail that a professional LEO need to know and make second nature.

    Dropping the bag is the kind of thing we should teach our kids. School supplies are EXPENSIVE. Do you chastize your children for dropping their backpack on the ground? Might this condition them to be reluctant to drop the bag when Stranger Danger makes a grab for them? Details.

    Nothing wrong with some constructive Monday morning quarterbacking. A wise man once said, "Learn from the mistakes of others. You will not live long enough to make them all yourself."
  19. He probably forgot the bag was even in his hand. Like dumb crook waited while I drop my bag. Time out, have to put my bag down and get into the proper Isosceles Stance. Hopefully if he returns to duty he can write all this tactical stuff down so he can take the time to read it next time.
  20. moona11

    moona11 King of you Monkeys Lifetime Supporter

    He did what he had to do. Have you ever been in his place to judge him. You do the best you can in high stress.