Gun trading and buying and selling, when does the ATF get interested ?

Discussion in 'General Firearms Discussion' started by SWAGA, Dec 28, 2014.

  1. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    Well they are now because of the title.......
    To my question:
    I really enjoyed tinkering with the SKS and it's the third gun I've bought that needed 'help'
    I took one to a gunsmith but in hindsight I could have done that one myself too.
    Now I've got 5 guns that I could potentially sell for more then I've paid for them.
    Either that or trade.

    Question is how many "hobby" sales or trades can you do before you're going to need a C&R or a full blown FFL?

    When I'm bored I'm sometimes thinking about starting a side business.
    But what's the cutoff point between hobby and business?
  2. Grant

    Grant Member

    The question is intent. If you are buying with the intent to sell at a profit on a regular basis, you have a business and the ATF and IRS are both going to be pretty interested in what you are doing.

    Buying a few guns you didn't like and selling them...not a problem

  3. bluharley

    bluharley Member

    If you sell privately, how do they know you're not a hoarder, and you sold them?

    EDIT: Not the route I would take.
  4. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    We'll consider this; I buy a gun legally in a store with a background check and I sell it out of my trunk legally and it get stolen and used in a crime they sure as hell gonna come knocking on my door....
  5. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    Ok so how do we decide if I bought a gun with the intent to sell or trade?
    Is there a cutoff as far as financial gain? What if I sell or trade for equal value? Does that even matter?
  6. bluharley

    bluharley Member

    That would be bad, but it could happen with any gun you sell, not just for profit.
  7. MaryB

    MaryB Supporting Member

    Every private sale I have made I have made up a bill of sale with buyers name, address, and phone number and verified it against their drivers license. And I have them sign it. It goes in the filing cabinet to be saved.
  8. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    I haven't as it's not required under Florida law.
    But even if and when I do that what is the cut off point or is that down to the respective agent that comes tearing down my door with a no knock warrant?

    Last edited: Dec 28, 2014
  9. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

    And you tell them you sold it... end of story, they go away.

  10. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

    Did you do a NICS check on the buyers? If not, how do you know they were legally allowed to purchase a firearm?

    The problem of a BoS is that it can be used against you faster then it can save you. ;)

  11. cicpup

    cicpup Resident PITA Supporting Member

    You're over thinking it Swaggs. ATF only cares if you're playing strawman. IRS only cares about taxable profit. Sell legally and keep a BOS. That takes care of the ATF. Handle profit like you would normally on your taxes to keep the other guys happy. Or don't. Your choice. If you start thinking it could be a profitable side project, consider getting your FFL to make life easier and save money. If you get into milsurp get your C&R to save some sheckles. You could trade all 5 tomorrow and not have a problem. Relax my friend.
  12. Dagwood

    Dagwood Supporting Member

    The "how do they know that I am not buying with the intent to re-sell" question I don't think is an issue. If so, than every troll that buys all the .22 ammo at walmart and puts it up for sale for twice what the cost was should be worried about the IRS as well. What about all the trolls that bought up all the Para-Ordinance 1911 .45's for 279.99 at Sportsman's Warehouse and put them on the websites for sale the next day for 500 bucks?
    I don't think you have anything to worry about at the moment SWAGA.
  13. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    NE Utah
    No they won't. There's no gun registration in Florida, right? They don't/can't check the FFL lists. They won't come to you.

    A BOS can help, but's not necessary, legally. Could save you some legal fees though.

    You'd have to be pushing a lot of guns to be on their radar.

    This is truth!^^^^^
  14. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

    After perusing ATF's website, I couldn't find anything that defined a cutoff point for sellers to require an FFL. Based on what I saw there, it looks like the FFL is needed for an actual business. Since you don't plan to sell the rifles as part of a business, it doesn't look like you'll need an FFL. In fact, the only information that I could find on their site was guidance about transferring firearms between non-licensed private parties. It is as follows:

    The absence of language in there referencing numbers of weapons sold or a threshold for FFL requirement indicates that selling an occasional rifle doesn't really constitute a business from ATF's perspective.
  15. A retired ATF agent, from whom I purchased a firearm, made that clear to me.
  16. Over the have bought a few firearms and after a while I sold them, most I did make a little money. I have yet to find an federal laws over how many firearms I buy or how many I sell. Some states might have laws cover that stuff but here in Indiana they don't.

    I do have a C&R and that is not a license to sale firearms at all. It just allows me to do one background check so I don't have to pay for the FFL for every old firearm I buy. But they do warn if you buy them with a C&R with the intent to resale that is against the law. But like others have said it is the intent, I buy what I like and enjoy if something happens and I don't enjoy I will sell it that is no problem.

    On a side note I do keep a bill of sale for everything I buy or sale but that is just to cover my butt if it ever comes up.
  17. MaryB

    MaryB Supporting Member

    Minnesota requires a permit to purchase for pistols and assault weapons, anything else I say "he looked normal to me..." and am not liable

  18. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    "You sold a reverberating carbonizer with mutate capacity to an unlicensed cephalopoid, Jeebs, you piece of ****..."



    Peace favor your sword,
  19. Johnny_B_Goode

    Johnny_B_Goode Member

    Here in NC we have a pistol purchase permit system. I demand that the buyer has a concealed permit or a pistol purchase permit. If I am selling a long gun I make a copy of the permit and their DL. If they want to be difficult they can hit the road. I am not getting into legal troubles over chump change.
  20. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member

    That's funny!