Has anybody seen this before?

Discussion in 'Vintage Topic Archive (Sept - 2009)' started by burboy, Dec 22, 2007.

  1. burboy

    burboy Guest

    Broken Mag bases with ATI stock.
    I have an older 995 made in 1997 which I have had for about 1 1/2 years. Never any problems in 1500 rounds. I recently decided I was tired of it and thought about switching to a Sub2000. Ultimately decided the Keltec had some negatives I didn't want so instead I spiffed up the old HP with a new ATI stock. Today I got a chance for some range time to rezero the red dot.
    Within just a few rounds I get a FTFeed. I clear it and go on thinking "oh no" what if the ATI stock has made my 995 unreliable. I try the same mag again and it happens again. So I try shooting another mag and on the second reload the same thing happens. I tried a couple of other mags and sure enough after a few rounds it starts to happen with all of them. Then, on a mag swap a thin piece of something falls out of the mag well onto the bench. I realize it is a piece of the plastic base plate of one of the mags! I examine all of my mags and of the 5, 4 of them have broken base plates. None were broke when I got there. The only one that isn't broken is the one I hadn't used yet!
    After examining the fit of the mags in the grip it is obvious that the back of the plastic base is riding against the angled ramp at the back of the ATI mag well. This causes the base plate to flex away from the mag as it tries to ride up this ramp, maybe from recoil, and it is eventually breaking them.
    Has anyone ever seen this happen before with the ATI stock or am I the lucky winner?
    Thanks in advance for any help.
    Here are pics of one of the broken mags.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Burboy :(
     
  2. If the mags are 10 years old, it could simply be degradation of the plastic with time.
     

  3. Still, you have to admit that it is a big coincidence that they all break the first time he tries his new ATI stock.

    Of course everyone knows I am a fan of the factory stocks ;)
     
  4. Another possible cause...

    You have a 1997 995 and ATI stocks are notorious for fitment issues. Its may be possible that Hi -Point changed some spec between then and now that is causing the problem.
     
  5. burboy

    burboy Guest

    At least 3 of my mags are only 1 1/2 years old. I bought them when I got the 995. All 5 look just alike so I don't know which came with the gun and which I bought. I don't see any difference in the plastic on any of them.
    You're right about there being some differences because of age. I didn't have to elongate the bolt holes at all but I had to cut a coil off the magazine catch spring in order to get the mags to release. With the spring installed the mag catch couldn't push in far enough to release the mag. It is very smooth now.
    I also had to call ATI and ask for the newer mag release button which is twice as long as the one originally on the gun. Their instruction sheet mentions this regarding older models but no mention of other problems with the mags.

    I wonder if the mag catch is different and holding the mags further up in the stock causing them to ride against the ramped area of the magwell?
    That would explain why I haven't seen anyone else post with this type of problem.

    Right now I am considering relieving the ramped area of the magwell so that the baseplate of the mag doesn't touch anymore.
    Just wanting to get some feedback first before I make a permanent mod to the stock.

    Man I hope HP will send me some more baseplates. If I have to purchase all new mags this little upgrade project isn't going to seem like such a good idea anymore.


    Burboy :?
     
  6. Ari

    Ari Guest

    I wonder what made the vertical lines in the base of the mag? (in your 2nd photo)
     
  7. I have hade my ATI stock for over a year and I have never heard of this issue before. You could call Hi-Point and have them send you some new magazine base plates, install them and see if it happens again. If it does, you can always look around the base of the ATI mag well and go for it with a dremel tool to see if you can remove some of the plastic that's causing the problem. If it doesn't happen again, you're good to go. Of course, Hi-Point doesn't warranty the ATI so, this is something you're gonna have to work out for yourself.

    Let us know how it progresses.
     
  8. burboy

    burboy Guest

    Before I start dremeling on the stock I took some plastic off the back of my one unbroken mag so that it would not contact the stock. Now the metal mag body hits against the stock instead of the plastic baseplate. If this doesn't mess up the feed angle or some such nonsense then it should fix the problem. We'll see.

    BTW, On my rifle the bottom of the mag is 1/16" above the bottom of the grip, measured at the rear of the mag.
    What does it measure on your rifles?
     
  9. I had one break just like that in a factory stock, I didn't have an ATI at the time. Mine was an older used carbine, but I think its a weak spot in the base, and its possible the ATI put just enough pressure on it to crack it all the way. I did sand out the magwell on the ATI just a little to give a little more play so the mags weren't as tight.

    I wished MKS would sell the bases but they wanted me to ship it back so they could look they said.
     
  10. GlockMan

    GlockMan Member

    951
    0
    Thats a tough one but I'M wondering if the top of the magazine in coming into contact with the bolt which pushes the top of the magazine forward causing the rear of the magazine base to shift back and contact the rear of the mag well cracking the base. I would have to see a bunch of pictures or a video of the gun being cycled from the bottom to see if I'M barking up the right tree here.
     
  11. burboy

    burboy Guest

    I agree Glockman. I have very carefully examined the top edges, etc. of all the broken mags and cannot find a single sign that they rub. They also don't show any signs of rubbing when I hand cycle the action. There is a lot of friction between the round and the mag as the bolt pushes it out into the chamber. I'm wondering if there is enough room for the mag to rock back and forth as the round is pushed out and slam the back of the basepad into the back of the magwell.
    I'm going back to the range tomorrow and try my modified mag that doesn't touch and see if it still works and if it breaks.
     
  12. Lashlarue

    Lashlarue Guest

    JB Weld the broken mags and be a little gentler when inserting. I know the gunmags say to rap the the base to get a positive lock on the magazine, but on my ATI I have found this not necessary just insert firmly you will feel it lock properly.
     
  13. unclerob

    unclerob Member

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    0
    I bought an ATI stock from a forum member and took it out today for the first time. I took 5 mags with me. On the forth SHOT of the day, the bottom of the mag broke off.
    The mag was a used one that looked well used.
    I thought about calling it a day and not putting any more of my mags in the ATI stock.
    Instead, I decided to run the rest of the mags and see what happened.
    I did a close inspection of the remaining mags and loaded up.
    96 rounds later, I noticed a small crack in another magazine. The second mag was also used but looked like new. (NOTE: I had to twist the mag base to see the crack. It was almost undetectable.
    Here are some photos for ref.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  14. There is commonality in the failures

    The fracture point on unclerob is identical to burbuy. It starts near the back on the left side. If you look at burboy's mag pic, you can see it almost chipped the piece out like unclerob's mag.

    Because of this, we need to find out whats common:

    What year is the 995?
    What year is the ATI stock?
    What year are the mags?
    What ammo are you using?

    If we can find whats common, we can see if it's a production run/year issue or a overall issue.
     
  15. burboy

    burboy Guest

    I spoke with the nice lady at Beemiller yesterday and sent all my broken mags back to them today. I am really hesitant to try the new ones in the ATI stock once I get them. I also asked for a replacement mag release assembly and she said they needed the serial number for that. In my head I said "Aha!" because I had wondered if the mag catch was different and causing this to happen. My 995 is very old and there are a couple of things different about it.
    What I know about the age of everything:
    I think the 995 is 1997 vintage. When I first got it this forum had just recently started up (originally member number 220 something) and there was a Hi-Point engineer that would answer questions in one of the forum areas. He looked it up for me.
    The mags came with 2 different 995's I bought and could be several years old, I don't know. At least one is only a year or so old but it may be the one I didn't try.
    The ATI stock was brand new. I just bought it around the first of December. Of course it could have been on somebody's shelf for a while.
    Ammo is Monarch from Academy Sports (Barnaul or Wolf). Been using it since day one with the original stock and never a problem.

    One thing I wish some of you ATI owners would look at...
    How far is it from the bottom of the grip to the bottom of the mag base when measured at the back of the mag well?
    Please post some numbers so I can compare mine. It is 1/16".

    Btw, my modified mag that I mentioned in a previous post did not break during my last range trip. It really couldn't because the plastic baseplate doesn't touch anything anymore. Unfortunately, it also doesn't feed reliably anymore either. I would get one, maybe two, nose-up misfeeds in every full mag. Without the plastic baseplate to hold the mag in place the mags have a lot of fore and aft room in the magwell. Maybe 3/16". They really flop back and forth.
     
  16. Lashlarue

    Lashlarue Guest

    1/64" estimated on all three of my OEMs my 2 Promags stick out 7/32". all fit fairly tight with no fore/aft or side to side slop to speak of.I got the nuts adjusted just right and the charge handle is smooth as silk.Too bad I had to kill a section of my carpet when I had my little accident the other day. I'm keeping the fired shell right next to my carbine as a visual reminder....
     
  17. 1/16" with my OE mag and ATI stock. The mag has always been sticky. It requires me to depress the release button to both engage and remove. The mag does not fall out but rather needs to be pulled out with the button pressed. I've had several FTF because the mag popped loose but did not fall out. My 995 -should be- fairly recent vintage having bought it 3 weeks ago.

    All-in-all, for the price I paid, I can live with it.
     
  18. Next time you guys take your 995's apart, take a look at the mag release. If the mag release is plastic with a metal foot/blade on the end of it, call Hi-Point and ask how much it would cost for a new one. They will probably send you one for free, but ask anyway.

    The thing is, the older 995's had a mag release with the metal foot/blade and plastic plunger, and these usually break at the connection point of the plunger/blade. They have since upgraded the part to be solid metal, looks to be an Aluminum alloy....

    Just something to check out next time you break down and clean. For the ATI Stock owners out there, all you have to do is remove the mag release cover screw and cover and check it out rather quickly.....
     
  19. unclerob

    unclerob Member

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    Using the mag with the hairline fracture pictured above in previous post, empty, there is a recess travel (slop) of .040 to .105 from the base of the mag to the base of the mag well.
    In other words the mag inserts into the magwell past the base plane of the mag well, up inside the gun. Then it will wiggle in and out .065". But it never protrudes out of the mag well.
    Note: it has slop in all 6 directions.

    Also:
    995 is a B series sn#

    Year of ATI stock unknown (unless someone knows of a stamping that will tell).

    Mags are of the "older version without the "stepped" follower. One has a "2" molded in the floor plate (seen in my previous post), the other has a "3" in it.
    3 other "unaffected " mag floor plates have "3", "3" and a "4" in them.

    Ammo was 100 each of S&B steel case 115 grs FMJ and CCI Blazer alloy case 115 gr FMJ.

    Note: All mags are Hi-Point factory. Mag release assy is all metal.