Having the legal right to shoot is not the same as NEEDING to shoot

Discussion in 'Training' started by lklawson, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Your Tactical Training Scenario - An Unnecessary Shooting
    by Greg Ellifritz 3:00pm Friday, December 04, 2015

    Those of us who train to use defensive firearms often think about scenarios where we might have to shoot an attacker. But how often do we think about alternate courses of action in situations where we might still be legal to shoot. Just because we legally CAN shoot someone, doesn’t mean that it’s always the best idea to do it.

    Put yourself in this situation…

    You are at a bar with your significant other. You are not drinking and you are (legally) carrying your concealed carry pistol. You hear between seven and ten shots shots being fired just outside the front door of the bar. What do you do?

    That incident happened in St. Louis. The bar patron was an off duty cop. He went outside and saw someone holding a gun up and firing. The cop drew his weapon and ordered the shooter to drop the gun. The shooter (who actually was an armed bouncer) turned and pointed his gun at the cop. They exchanged shots and the cop died. It didn’t have to happen.

    If you are carrying a gun for personal protection, use your brain. When you hear gunshots HEAD THE OTHER DIRECTION! Nothing good can happen out there! If I had been in that bar and heard the shots, I would have quickly gathered my friends or family and headed out the back door. Let the (on duty) boys in blue earn their money solving that problem. I’m out.

    If this incident went to court, the judge would have likely determined that the cop was acting lawfully when he ordered an armed individual to drop his weapon and then shot when that individual didn’t comply. It would have been a legal shooting. But that doesn’t help our cop friend here. He’s dead and won’t enjoy his court exoneration.

    I’ll say it again: Having the legal right to shoot is not the same as NEEDING to shoot. Many folks don’t understand the difference.

    If you choose to get involved in a problem that isn’t yours, some very bad things can happen. Think about that before you decide to be the hero.

    Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute.

    For more information or to contact Greg, visit his training site at Active Response Training.

    Peace favor your sword,
  2. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    NE Utah
    Tell that to the mother of the dead boy you could have saved if you HAD bothered to show up...:rolleyes:

    Just another case of stupid black/white scenario setting. The FACT is, things may, or may not, happen, and saying THIS is the way, or THAT is the way, is ignorant at best.

    I'll say it again...many folks are ignorant.

    If you choose to get involved in a problem that isn't yours, and do it responsibly, some very good things can happen.

    Think about that before you decide to run and hide.:cool:

    Just throwing out the other side of the argument that this guy was ignoring while spouting off.;)

  3. No one shoe fits all in such matters.

    For example the difference of if having ones small child with them or not would be a consideration. All other things being equal. Can the kid run? Can the kid hide? Would the kid stay put? Is the child in any danger? The smallest change changes much.

    Public safety is everyones responsibility. The best thing to do if such a thing comes up will have to be decided at the time.
  4. moona11

    moona11 King of you Monkeys Lifetime Supporter

    We are considered on duty 24/7
  5. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    I figured this one would get a lot of "input." :)

    Peace favor your sword,
  6. histed

    histed Supporting Member

    Stirin' the pot, Kirk? No clue what I'd do. I'm not LEO, so I have no obligation to anyone but my family. Not a vet, so I don't have combat training or experience to fall back on. Never aspired to be a hero. Ajole had a couple of good points, but the truth is closer to Potter's comments. Like to think I'd do the right thing in a given situation, but I'll never know until it happens. And I pray constantly that it never does.
  7. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Almost no one actually does "the right thing" when under high stress. That takes significant forethought, training, and practice for most people.

    Peace favor your sword,
  8. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

    Very Thought Provoking.

    MaryB had the opportunity to cap a meth head right up in his @$$
    but held him at gunpoint until the Sheriff arrived. They later told
    this individual to "leave town or else" and he did!
    (iirc, Mary will be in here later I'd imagine)
  9. histed

    histed Supporting Member

    As usual, cut to the chase ;). This was the point I was trying to make. Forethought I've give it, practice I do (but not enough and probably not the right kind) training I lack. Hence my dilemma - would I actually know the "right thing" and have both the skill and intestinal fortitude to carry it out out.
  10. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    I have thought about this many times.

    In a big store, like a Target or WalMart, or the mall, I plan on heading towards the sound. If I am with the family, I will send them running.

    Unfortunately, the wife doesn't carry, so me taking the firearm and going towards teh sound leaves her defenseless...but like others have said, I don't think I can live with myself knowing I didn't try.

    In say a convenience store or bank robbery situation....it will depend on the circumstance. If I feel threatened or that the bg is a serious threat to anyone...I'm drawing.

    That's the plan anyways...who knows what I will actually do if I am ever in a situation.

    In this situation in the original post, I probably wouldn't run outside...too many variables for me.
  11. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    Just read this that was posted on Facebook earlier today

    Concealed Carrier Hits The Trifecta On What NOT To Do As An Armed Citizen


  12. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    NE Utah
    More left wing PC BS. The author is an idiot with an agenda, and he needs to get down off his soapbox, sit back down in front of his computer, and STFU.

    1… Following a suspected thief out of a store is not your job as a customer.

    It's no one's "job"...it's what we Americans do when criminals do things...we stop them.

    For all you know, they could be armed (and this suspect apparently was). Unless you’re loss prevention, it shouldn’t concern you.

    Oh...but it does. Crime affects me directly as it increases MY costs. This guy sounds like the pinko socialists that think free healthcare is "free".:rolleyes:

    2… The armed customer continues to follow the suspect and then fires a shot at that suspect, seemingly after the suspect pointed a gun at him.

    So...this pinko is hinting that the gun carrying citizen is lying? Nice touch asshat.:rolleyes:

    This entire situation of firing a shot at a fleeing suspect –that he shouldn’t have been chasing in the first place–

    Says this pinko media idiot...

    3… Even after seeing the suspect display a gun, the armed customer still decides to give chase on foot to get a license plate number. I don’t know about you, but I’d stop going after someone once they pointed a gun in my direction. That’s just me.

    Yeah...well you're also a wussy, and a pinko, and a weak kneed lily livered....sheesh, what a joke.:rolleyes:

    The armed customer was interviewed by reporters on the incident and had this to say: “[The Detective said] I probably should have never chased the guy. Lesson learned. If your life isn’t in immediate danger like that, you know, especially if you don’t have a firearm or a means of defending yourself, [inaudible] just let it go.”

    Ummm...but, he DID have a firearm and the means to defend himself, didn't he.:cool:

    This is a teachable moment here, and I’ll try to hammer this point home. If you, as an armed citizen, make the decision to carry a firearm in public (or anywhere) for self-defense, you’d better as hell know when and when not to draw your firearm. There are times when it’s appropriate, and then there are times like this.

    Which this self proclaimed expert thinks is something it wasn't.

    Maybe the article should read that there are times when you, as a citizen with a voice, should know when to shut up about things you don't understand.

    There is no word on whether the armed citizen will be charged, but I say he needs to be held accountable for his negligence in some fashion.

    What negligence? Seriously....this guy is ridiculous.:rolleyes:
    The only one that needs to be held responsible is this author, who should be forced to pay for all the increased costs his attitude will incur when we all stop stopping criminals
  13. There was a similar deal in the Twin Cities a couple of years ago. A customer chased the the thief and shot him. The police didn't even take the customer 'down town' for questioning. Just let him go about his day.
  14. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Carry two. Give one to her. Make sure it's not one with a "safety." If she's not practiced with firearms, then something easy shooting with low recoil like the Kel Tec P32 is nearly ideal.

    Peace favor your sword,
  15. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    I disagree with most of the authors conclusions but I appreciate that at least someone is thinking a bit beyond "OMG, Ninjas are attacking!"

    Should the "armed citizen" have followed? I might have. Not as a "loss prevention" dude (though I've assisted in that before when working at Wal-Mart). Rather, just to do what he did in the end, get the license plate and an ID. I've no intention to "citizens arrest" anyone, but being a "good witness" is rather useful.

    Should he have drawn and fired once the crook threatened him with a firearm? ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY!!!! If a guy points a gun at you, you're an imbecile if you don't accept the probability that he's willing to yank the bang switch. You simply have to make that assumption. It passes the "Reasonable Man" sniff test.

    Should he have continued to follow the criminal after he was threatened with the weapon and forced to fire upon the criminal? No, I don't think so. Gun fights aren't something I'm interested in. Defend myself. Defend my family. Defend innocent third parties. Yes. You can keep the OK Corral.

    Does that make him negligent? I don't think so. Should he be "punished" in some way? Maybe some remedial training on what to do after shots are exchanged. It shouldn't include "I followed him some more." While not criminally negligent, it's still doofus territory.

    Peace favor your sword,
  16. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    I have thought about this and I am strongly leaning towards doing so. ALso considered maybe the Taurus TCP ?
  17. moona11

    moona11 King of you Monkeys Lifetime Supporter

    That would work to Tall.
  18. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Yup. Moona is right, that would work. Of the pocket rocket polymer 380 handguns, the TCP seems to be the easiest recoiling. But it still recoils a lot more stoutly than the P32. Trigger is about the same. "Long."

    Peace favor your sword,
  19. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    What about teh Taurus PT22

    I know, I know, a .22 for a carry gun?

    Better than nothign IMO, and I think it would be plenty easy to carry and not intimidating to her since she is not a shooter
  20. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    I have one. The trigger is long and heavy; heavier than the TCP or the P32, but like both of those, it is Double Action only (unlike the Beretta it is a clone of). It also has a safety which is too tight on my example to use. The grips are very comfortable but something like 1/3 wider than the TCP and, at a guess, twice as wide as the P32. The recoil is partially dampened by being an all metal gun but is ramped back up because it's a Simple Blowback. I'd rate the recoil below that of the TCP but above that of the P32, both of which are Browning locked recoil style firearms. In fact, the PT22 has no extractor! While it's a good gun, the best thing about it is the tip-up barrel which allows the a round to be chambered or removed from the chamber without racking the slide.

    What about it? Shoot what you want, carry what you want. All I ask is that your gun function reliably and safety; it will always go bang when the trigger is pressed and it won't go bang unless the trigger is pressed, and secondly that you operate the gun responsibly, that is you will only press the trigger when morally and legally able to do so and in such a way as to not endanger innocent third parties with its use. Other than that, I don't care if you carry a rubber band gun.

    Then I'd recommend the P32. From what you tell me, the order of those three options I'd recommend for her use, as a BUG to pass off to her in an emergency, I'd say
    1. Kel Tec P32
    2. Taurus PT22
    3. Taurus TCP 380

    I own all three and am familiar with the handling characteristics of all. The P32 is the mildest recoiling of all three, has a better ME than the .22LR, and has a better round-count than the .380ACP.

    Peace favor your sword,