[combatvetjustin]

This hits home for me.. My mom worked but because of cost decided not to get her insurance.. she had a heart attack and of course it was 250k worth of med. bills. She cashed in her 401k and everything else ot pay it off and now it done but at 55 years old she now has no retirement and cant find a new job since she cant do her old one.. I have told her time and time again to go to school so she can find a better job. She worked 2-3 jobs her whole life to now be in this situation.. I told her I would never vote for health care.. right now more states provide health care to children I dont see the point in why the govt would even think of this. The reason why health care costs so much is because of the fact people use the ER as a doctors office, If you dont have insurance and your job sucks get a better job.. if you cant find one because you are not qualified then go back to school, I did and am going back again in a month or so to get another degree... If you want to succeed then you have to work hard.. NOTHING is free, you will always have to pay something for it, healthcare is not a free service and to think the govt can provide for you is rediculous, everything they have attempted to "fix" never gets fixed.. Medicare and social security are examples of how the govt. screwed up.. who wants to continue.

 

[Rhodes]

Hehe remove all but the last period. If as it seems there must be some reform in health care then it must focus on personal responsibility.
So call it a Common Sense approach, benefits are paid for by the recipient. All I suggest is giving the poor the ability though hard work to pay their own way. This will instill dignity and result in fewer poor, not though government handouts but by their own hand.

i hate to put words in your mouth, but that sounds like govt subsidized health care for the poor. unless you are asking the insurance companies to voluntarily lower their prices so that the poor can afford it to. sorry, that just aint gonna happen. they are in this business to make money, and you don't make money by selling your product for less than it costs you to make it.

a lot of poor people work hard and still cannot afford healthcare (i was one of them for awhile). so the only way your model would work is to lower the cost artificially, translation 'gov't subsidy'.

and you can't just eliminate all poverty through 'hard work'. As jesus christ himself said, "the poor you will always have with you"

You asked I answered, since we get in return for the money a service in the form of labor we are not giving any one anything. If we must help them then we must help to restore dignity and work ethics not bloat welfare roles that destroy the human spirit.

Poor is a relative term. Poor in the US today would be filthy rich in any other time or place. How long until you realize that this country is not like any that exists now or ever before. Here hard work can indeed eliminate poverty in all but the most specail of cases. We have never achieved more than the smallest fraction of this countries true potential.

 

[bomber101581]

You asked I answered, since we get in return for the money a service in the form of labor we are not giving any one anything. If we must help them then we must help to restore dignity and work ethics not bloat welfare roles that destroy the human spirit.

so, can we agree that the description is "gov't subsidized health care for tthe poor based on a sliding scale for those who can prove themselves productive members of society"

Poor is a relative term. Poor in the US today would be filthy rich in any other time or place. How long until you realize that this country is not like any that exists now or ever before. Here hard work can indeed eliminate poverty in all but the most specail of cases. We have never achieved more than the smallest fraction of this countries true potential.

i disagree, never in the history of the world has there been a society that did not have "the poor" as a class. there have been and are currently societies that allowed for upward mobility based on a strong work ethic and desire to succeed. the protestant ethic may be a cure in individual cases, but it will not make the poor disappear as a class.

 

[Rhodes]

Hmm The suggestion Im offering is employment for those that think they need such, doing work that we as a country need performed, badly need. If a millionaire wants to patch potholes for a paycheck that includes insurance so let him, I just rightly assume none would want to do this.

Having nothing objective to define poverty then we can always class someone poor. The poor used to starve as a matter of routine.

Poverty is used in this country as a means of gaining political power by those that claim to champion them. In return all they require is your freedom.

At some point we have to admit this is getting us no where but slavery.

 

[Progurt]

I'm a socialist and I like your idea Rhodes. Sounds a lot like the New Deal and the Civilian Conservation Corps, but with health care.

Also sounds like the Reeks and Wrecks from "Player Piano", but nothing wrong with that if the alternative is starvation.

I think if we banned health insurance companies and let doctors set their own prices within state-mandated limits, that'd be a great start. Massive for-profit health industry companies make no sense to any truly sane person. It's some bureaucrat making your health care decisions for you, it's you not having any real choices, and they turn a bigger profit if they don't pay for your care. Dumb.

here's a thought: What if the government helped pay for the equipment in hospitals, and the patients paid for the salaries of the doctors and nurses and techs. Don't know if it'd work or not, just tossing it out there.

 

[Rhodes]

Actually Its still just an idea in progress. I do not purpose any gift or handout or increase in federal involvement in health care only providing means to pay.

 

[bomber101581]

....only providing means to pay.

who would provide the means?

 

[Rhodes]

Well I could do as Obama and claim the Easter Bunny is going to pay for it but then maybe not rumor is hes broke also.

 

[bomber101581]

Well I could do as Obama and claim the Easter Bunny is going to pay for it but then maybe not rumor is hes broke also.

so if not the easter bunny, then who?

 

[Rhodes]

Either Santa or us.

The recipient pays just like I said above. They would draw a paycheck for the work performed on infrastructure and from that deductions for insurance. The government would of course have to grow a brain to implement it but its the only way I could ever get behind any reform outside of tort reform. We have no choice on repairing our infrastructure so why not combine it? How much more clear do I have to be?

Want to save money, enact tort reform. That alone would reduce costs as much as 20% by some estimates. Why isnt it in this bill?

Want to save even more? Enact anti-fraud measures to the point of being draconian. There's another 4%, why is it not in this bill?

Of course this assumes they really do want to work which I am guessing not to be entirely accurate for a good percentage.

FDRs program just wasted money, they built roads that went no where and bridges without roads. Waste and fraud was rampant which is why I see nothing happening here.

 

[bomber101581]

all i want to know is:

are you supporting a subsidy for poor to get healthcare that they cannot afford if they can show they are productive members of society?

and if so, is it the taxpayer who provides that subsidy?

 

[Progurt]

Actually Its still just an idea in progress. I do not purpose any gift or handout or increase in federal involvement in health care only providing means to pay.

The idea that socialism is about gifts and handouts is a misconception propagated by the wealthy. Marx said "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". If they aren't benefiting society, if they aren't pulling their weight, then they are slugs and leeches no better then the wealthy aristocracy.

FDRs program just wasted money, they built roads that went no where and bridges without roads.

Do you have specific examples? We have national parks today because of the CCC. They strung telephone wire, built dams, stopped and fought forest fires, all kinds of things. To quote a site about the CCC:

Legacies are not made overnight. It took several years and hundred-thousands of men to build its legacy. While the CCC was in service 46,854 bridges were constructed; 800 state parks were created; 4,622 fish rearing ponds established; 3,980 historic sites were restored, including Gettysburg Battlefield; 5,000 miles of water lines were laid; 3,462 beaches were improved; three billion trees were planted; millions of acres and thousands of lakes were, for the first time, surveyed and mapped; 1,865 drinking fountains were installed; 27, 191 miles of fences were built; 204 lodges and museums were established; 201,739 man-days were spent fighting coal fires, some had been burning since the earliest recorded American history, saving billions of tons of coal; hundreds of thousands of man-days were spent fighting forest fires; 3,116 lookout towers were constructed; 8,065 well and pump houses were built; and thousands of man-day were spent in flood control. These numbers are just a small representation of work the CCC accomplished. Today citizens enjoy the accomplishments of the CCC and few even realize it.

 

[Rhodes]

Quoting Marx is like quoting Jerry Lewis, both are fools just one is acting. If your wisdom comes from him then you are making yourself in the image a fool responsible for the most horrid inhumane ineffectual governments in the history of mankind. Socialism has failed, does fail, and always will fail.

As for CCW projects you are paying homage to the legend not the truth. There is a road not two miles from my house built under that program that went to the middle of a swamp and just stopped. The country used to be full of these things. Some of the projects were worthy, most were foolish wastes of money or frauds.

What I would offer them are jobs doing a task that we must pay for anyway with contributions paid like any other employee. It is not a subsidy to the poor because there is no requirement to be poor to participate. But it is unlikely anyone would want to sign on to this if they already had better. But if I had my choice nothing would be done since the government will only foul it up no matter how well intentioned.

 

[Progurt]

Quoting Marx is like quoting Jerry Lewis, both are fools just one is acting. If your wisdom comes from him then you are making yourself in the image a fool responsible for the most horrid inhumane ineffectual governments in the history of mankind. Socialism has failed, does fail, and always will fail.

And yet you're saying the same things he was saying. The government should provide jobs for the poor that are willing to work, and they get health care as a result. That's socialism. Socialism isn't handouts and welfare.

And if public health care is socialism and will always fail, how do you explain all the countries allied to us, countries like Canada, Japan, Germany, Finland, the UK, where they have national health care?

Even as a socialist I don't advocate a fully socialist government. Any pure Socialist country will fail, and any pure unregulated Capitalist country will fail. Mixed economies are the way to go. But the only way you get a mixed economy is by having people on both sides of the issue pushing and pulling back and forth.

As for CCW projects you are paying homage to the legend not the truth. There is a road not two miles from my house built under that program that went to the middle of a swamp and just stopped. The country used to be full of these things. Some of the projects were worthy, most were foolish wastes of money or frauds.

Your example is one road? Was there always a swamp there? Did they do anything there? Do you know for a fact they had no reason for making that road? Have you ever gone to a national park and found the aftereffects of the CCC that are still there even today?

 

[leadslinger]

Quoting Marx is like quoting Jerry Lewis, both are fools just one is acting. If your wisdom comes from him then you are making yourself in the image a fool responsible for the most horrid inhumane ineffectual governments in the history of mankind. Socialism has failed, does fail, and always will fail.

As for CCW projects you are paying homage to the legend not the truth. There is a road not two miles from my house built under that program that went to the middle of a swamp and just stopped. The country used to be full of these things. Some of the projects were worthy, most were foolish wastes of money or frauds.

Calling Marx a "fool" is to deny the brilliance of the man. You can totally disagree with someone's ideals and still not disparage the person.

As to the CCC (or CCW as you deem) there is quite a legend in reality, however the detractors can only see the negative side. Everyday I travel a road built by the CCC in a National Park built by the CCC to work at the site of a former CCC camp. In fact if not for the CCC the place where I now work would be a wasteland, as opposed to the most visited NP in the country. I can't walk outside and not see the impact that the CCC had here. Yes there might have been some "bad" projects like a road to nowhere or digging holes then filling them back up , but the moral of the story is there was massive unemployment, the CCC was a solution to that problem. The "huddled masses" were given jobs to earn money and help support their families. Or would detractors propose they should have been given handouts and laying around the house all day as we now do? Each year I get to meet some of the old timers that worked here while in the CCC, each year they tell the stories of how the opportunity to work an honest day and earn a wage helped them make it through such a hard time and gave them hope this country would turn it around. But then again I guess giving a man a job when there are none is foolish and fraudulent.

BY the way, about 70% of CCC enrollees were malnurished and or ill clothed and had little to no work experience.
In a 1936 poll over 80% of Americans were in favor of the camps.

 

[HiPoint45]

And if public health care is socialism and will always fail, how do you explain all the countries allied to us, countries like Canada, Japan, Germany, Finland, the UK, where they have national health care?

How do you explain all the canadians who slide south to the US because they can't get the healthcare they they need with their public option? Or the disparity in cancer survival rates between europe (and the UK specifically) and the US? With the survival rate being some 20% higher in the US? Also yes the CCC got some things done but what other choice was there for an unemployed starving man? Notice how quickly it disbanded through desertion , men leaving for real jobs, the war effort etc,I'm fairly certain CCC was over in the early 40's, you know when people got bacck on their feet. I'm sure Obamas CCC will be effective too because soon we will probably be in the same pickle. Might I suggest you read Amity Shlaes book The Forgotten Man for a slightly different perspective on FDR's programs and who really bankrolled them..the common man who was still working.

 

[Rhodes]

Marx was indeed a fool, knew nothing of human nature, subsisted off the charity of others and was rather hypocritical in his personal life. In other words no more brilliant than those that influenced Hitler. All accomplished the same thing, human misery on scales thought unbelievable before.

There are tons of these roads perhaps you should look into the subject just how much that program cost us. You have convinced me of one thing though. My idea is flawed and I renounce it. Now I believe anything done though the Feds is doomed to failure despite intentions.

 

[Progurt]

How do you explain all the canadians who slide south to the US because they can't get the healthcare they they need with their public option?

How many, by %, and what does it cost them? The lady who called her cyst a malignant tumor and got it removed by the Mayo clinic had to take out a second mortgage and borrow from friends and family for it. How many people in the US have the ability to do that?

Or the disparity in cancer survival rates between europe (and the UK specifically) and the US? With the survival rate being some 20% higher in the US?

We run more tests in the US, resulting in more cancers being detected early. Of course, these tests are fantastically expensive. And getting cancer in the US can mean a trip to the poorhouse.

How do you explain the disparity in life expectancy between socialized health care countries and the US? The USA is at #30 for overall life expectancy. The UK is at #28. Canada is at #10. France, with the best health care system in the world, is at #5. Japan is at #2. When I was in the Air Force and stationed on Okinawa, I knew a guy married to a local Okinawan who made sure that his kids had dual US-Japanese citizenship so they could get the Japanese health care, even after he eventually left the military. How do you explain the disparity in infant mortality rates? The US is ranked at #33, behind the UK, Canada, France, Japan, and many other countries with public or national health care.

The US has the best medical technology in the world if you can afford it. Not everybody can. Other countries have nearly the best medical technology, and a lot more affordability and accessibility, and as a result people live longer and healthier lives.

Also yes the CCC got some things done but what other choice was there for an unemployed starving man? Notice how quickly it disbanded through desertion , men leaving for real jobs, the war effort etc,I'm fairly certain CCC was over in the early 40's, you know when people got bacck on their feet.

Seriously?

The CCC was disbanded because a little thing called WW2 happened in the early 40s. Not just because people got back on their feet. And could people have gotten back on their feet without that government intervention? You say "what other choice was there for an unemployed starving man?", I say "Exactly."

Marx was indeed a fool, knew nothing of human nature, subsisted off the charity of others and was rather hypocritical in his personal life.

Marx predicted the problems of globalization 100 years prior in the Communist Manifesto. He was ridiculously prescient. The greatest failure of 20th century communism was that the Leninists and Stalinists hijacked the revolution and tried to force it along too quickly, skipping straight to communism before we were at all mature enough for it as a species, and trying to patch the holes with brutal totalitarianism. But that's a discussion for another day, with people capable of understanding the political views of people they disagree with.

I wonder how many other of your positions I could get you to abandon just because I find them agreeable. Been saying for a while that Obama should get fundamentalist conservatives to change all their positions by deciding to adopt them as his own. He should try to push through a few Republican policies just to get Republicans to oppose them.

 

[HiPoint45]

[Seriously?

The CCC was disbanded because a little thing called WW2 happened in the early 40s. Not just because people got back on their feet. And could people have gotten back on their feet without that government intervention? You say "what other choice was there for an unemployed starving man?", I say "Exactly."

So now the debate is we have better healthcare but its not affordable? We just keep moving the goalposts don't we? Could you show me the people who were denied healthcare here because of lack of insurance or no money? No one wants to acknowledge the fact that if you walk in the hospital here they treat you. As far as Canadians by percentage I don't have that I'll try to find it, but are you claiming it doesn't happen? Does it cost them $? of course..but ask the question, if free healthcare is such a panacea, why are they willing to pay that said $? Perhaps they feel better alive and broke temporarily than free healthcare and dead.
If only the war was what disbanded ccc why didn't it swing back into operation after say ..oh ..1946? As far as "exactly" I meant there was no other choice because instead of fixing the problem and encouraging capitalism to succeed FRD rammed CCC though in like the first 40 or 50 days after inauguration....sound familiar? By my saying it was indeed the only choice offered to the unemployed at that time in no way means I endorse it or think it was a wise choice. If you're starving and someone offers you a 3 day old dead rat you'll eat it, but of course if the kitchen was run properly a nice steak is always preferable.

 

[Ammertime]

I believe we should nationalize oil, coal and natural gas as well as essential utilities such as electricity and water. No longer would our money be going to greedy corproations and their investors, but to support health care and education. I know some of you will scream socialism but take a look at the following links and see how we rank against so-called "socialist" western nations in Human Development, Education, and Quality of Life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index

So we should become socialists and turn our industries into govt owned entities to move up an average of 0.35 on these so called scales? My quality of life is fine thanks I don't want to live in Spain or Ireland or (shudder) France. As far as being 15th those places on that scale are separated by 0.18 hardly a blip someone has to be first, looking at the list I'm quite happy at 15th. So you purpose we just steal all the companies invested money and equipment for the greater good hmmm? Well I will scream socialism at that. How do you think things get accomplished by govt fiat? No it takes capital, risk taking and so on. I believe what you term as "greedy corporations" have propelled much of our development or do you think the pc you're typing on would have been developed faster if MicroFed was in charge of it? Also using your wikipedia lists I notice the country who stole our countries investment in their oil...Venezuela, heavily "nationalized" ,is 59th on the quality of life index. Thanks but no thanks, stealing from people isn't a way to implement anything in this country whether it be stealing my hard earned money in unfair taxes or stealing legitimate businesses by nationalization.

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