[Progurt]

So now the debate is we have better healthcare but its not affordable? We just keep moving the goalposts don't we?

If you can't buy the food you starve regardless of whether it exists or not.

Could you show me the people who were denied healthcare here because of lack of insurance or no money?

http://www.guaranteedhealthcare.org/video_story/david-welch_rn_can-039-t-get-insured
http://www.guaranteedhealthcare.org...ephens_rn-musician_was-diagnosed-several-incu
http://www.guaranteedhealthcare.org...-sarkisyan_17-year-old-who-died-12-20-07_nata
http://www.guaranteedhealthcare.org...ate_has-coverage-his-son-039-s-disease-denied
http://www.guaranteedhealthcare.org..._who-authorized-benefits-others-loses-her-own

No one wants to acknowledge the fact that if you walk in the hospital here they treat you.

The hospitals can provide emergency care. Not rehabilitative care or preventative care. People die in the US because by the time they can see a doctor, by the time they go to the emergency room, whatever they have is so far progressed that there's no fix for it. My wife is a nurse at an inner-city hospital and she sees it all the time.

As far as Canadians by percentage I don't have that I'll try to find it, but are you claiming it doesn't happen? Does it cost them $? of course..but ask the question, if free healthcare is such a panacea, why are they willing to pay that said $? Perhaps they feel better alive and broke temporarily than free healthcare and dead.

In more then a few cases, it's because they have the money and they're in a hurry. If they need it to live, Canada does it and fast. There's private health insurance plans int he US that won't cover many of the same things that Canadian public health care won't cover.

If only the war was what disbanded ccc why didn't it swing back into operation after say ..oh ..1946? As far as "exactly" I meant there was no other choice because instead of fixing the problem and encouraging capitalism to succeed FRD rammed CCC though in like the first 40 or 50 days after inauguration....sound familiar? By my saying it was indeed the only choice offered to the unemployed at that time in no way means I endorse it or think it was a wise choice. If you're starving and someone offers you a 3 day old dead rat you'll eat it, but of course if the kitchen was run properly a nice steak is always preferable.

If Capitalism had something better to offer in those days, they weren't offering it. Starving was the Capitalist choice. Free market enlightened self interest and all that. Did one of the few wealthy cats left after 1929 set up their own private version of the CCC? No?

Probably the biggest reason the CCC didn't come back after WW2 was the GI Bill. It's curious how something that was approved of by 82% of the country at the time, the CCC, now has to be demonized by Republicans who can't accept that a Democrat president cleaned up a Republican president's mess. May have been the first time, but it sure wasn't the last. It's really sad that the desperate supporters of one of our worst presidents have to attack one of our best presidents.

 

[HiPoint45]

Well as our minds are made up I see no need for further debate, and I certainly don't agree that FDR was one of our greatest presidents, and before you scream republican bias I didn't much care for the other Roosevelt either. Of course since you want to blame Hoover would you care to step back a few years to Wilson who the fed reserve was created under? Alot of theories place the feds raised interest rates trying to curb wallstreet speculation and then did nothing to keep the money supply from failing. Of course causes are still debated but I'm just saying it's easy for knee jerks on your side of the aisle too.

As far as your examples..they are all from the California Nurses association Guaranteed healthcare site..I'm sure thats not biased at all. But you did give 5 examples so you did what I asked. 5 out 300,000,000....hmmm weren't you giving Rhodes static cause he only sited one road project for you? Tell us your story at SinglePayer.com...lol

 

[bomber101581]

What I would offer them are jobs doing a task that we must pay for anyway with contributions paid like any other employee. It is not a subsidy to the poor because there is no requirement to be poor to participate. But it is unlikely anyone would want to sign on to this if they already had better. But if I had my choice nothing would be done since the government will only foul it up no matter how well intentioned.

so your choice is just to leave it the way it is?

 

[bomber101581]

Marx was indeed a fool, knew nothing of human nature, subsisted off the charity of others and was rather hypocritical in his personal life. In other words no more brilliant than those that influenced Hitler. All accomplished the same thing, human misery on scales thought unbelievable before.

many millions have died at the hands of those who invoke the name of Christ, was he a fool too?

just so you know, i'm not comparing Marx to Christ, i'm just saying that both have had their words and intentions twisted to further the ends of evil people

 

[Rhodes]

Marx was indeed a fool, knew nothing of human nature, subsisted off the charity of others and was rather hypocritical in his personal life. In other words no more brilliant than those that influenced Hitler. All accomplished the same thing, human misery on scales thought unbelievable before.

many millions have died at the hands of those who invoke the name of Christ, was he a fool too?

just so you know, i'm not comparing Marx to Christ, i'm just saying that both have had their words and intentions twisted to further the ends of evil people

No bomber Christ understood human nature perfectly and never advocated anything other than his own actions. You are straining here and on the wrong side of this matter.

 

[bomber101581]

Marx was indeed a fool, knew nothing of human nature, subsisted off the charity of others and was rather hypocritical in his personal life. In other words no more brilliant than those that influenced Hitler. All accomplished the same thing, human misery on scales thought unbelievable before.

many millions have died at the hands of those who invoke the name of Christ, was he a fool too?

just so you know, i'm not comparing Marx to Christ, i'm just saying that both have had their words and intentions twisted to further the ends of evil people

No bomber Christ understood human nature perfectly and never advocated anything other than his own actions. You are straining here and on the wrong side of this matter.

did marx advocate the killing of massive amounts of people?

 

[Rhodes]

Any one advocating and justifying tyranny advocates brutality, genocide, murder, and all manner of human misery. At this point I have to ask have you even read Marx? His position that revolution and civil war would be required to bring about the dictatorship of the people or his so called transition period soaks his writing in blood before it was even shed. Any that would defend this person and even compare him to our only hope of salvation places them in a position as an enemy of humanity as a whole.

Have we not paid a high enough price for Marx's delusions? Have we not had enough of these socialist utopia nightmares?

I can only hope you are making this defense from a position of one who has been fooled, if not then I am truly sorry for you.

 

[bomber101581]

Any one advocating and justifying tyranny advocates brutality, genocide, murder, and all manner of human misery. At this point I have to ask have you even read Marx? His position that revolution and civil war would be required to bring about the dictatorship of the people or his so called transition period soaks his writing in blood before it was even shed. Any that would defend this person and even compare him to our only hope of salvation places them in a position as an enemy of humanity as a whole.

Have we not paid a high enough price for Marx's delusions? Have we not had enough of these socialist utopia nightmares?

I can only hope you are making this defense from a position of one who has been fooled, if not then I am truly sorry for you.

Stating that Christ is the only hope of salvation for humanity is a purely christian ideal (one that I agree with by the way, but its still strictly a belief). To the objective outside observer, one might view Christ as the cause of much suffering in the world as many people have taken his message and perverted it and used it to murder millions (Christopher Columbus, the Spanish conquest of Latin America, the crusades, the reformation of Europe, manifest destiny...the list goes on and on). Is it the fault of Christ that man has twisted his words and used him as a sword to accomplish their own means? I believe the same holds true for Marx (though without the whole 'deity' thing). Marx advocated revolution, which always comes with death and violence. but didn't christ talk about returning to earth with a sword in hand, ready do dole out a monumental whoopass to the unbeliever? all i am saying is this, people will take someone who is influential and use them for their own purposes, and often that means a lot of blood. hell, even Ghandi had his zealots, despite his hunger strikes and his perpetual message of non-violence.

 

[combatvetjustin]

A system that gives you everything will eventually take it all away, free health care means all the money goes into treating illness rather than finding cures... the US puts 80% of the worlds research into cures for things such as cancer and what not where countries like england have only a fraction of a %.. most drugs are not even an option because of cost for the average person.. that means that if you are poor you still get [email protected] service and when they find out whats wrong cant fix it because you are not worth the time or $$... Most states offer insurance for people, In IA my aunt got very sick with cancer and couldnt work anymore, my uncle lost his job because of her being in the hospital and COBRA was like 900 per month, the state kicked in and helped, she didnt make it but they at least paid the docs for the treatments... a lot better than what our fed is trying to push through.

 

[Progurt]

In IA my aunt got very sick with cancer and couldnt work anymore, my uncle lost his job because of her being in the hospital and COBRA was like 900 per month, the state kicked in and helped, she didnt make it but they at least paid the docs for the treatments... a lot better than what our fed is trying to push through.

And people in other states are just fucked?

I was in the ER recently (because my insurance doesn't cover us having our own personal doctor) for something called "Epigloic Appendagitis". The CT scan to figure out what was wrong with me cost $5,000. The emergency room fee was $1,379. And then there was a prescription for Vicodin to help with the pain until it went away in a few days. All that cost $6,379. I am lucky that I'm only paying just under $2,000 of that, and even more lucky that our flex spending account will cover all that.

For an illness that could have been appendicitis but wound up being relatively minor and clearing up in a few days. Our flex spending plan is gonna be dry. If me or my wife gets sick or injured, we're screwed. The insurance company will pay 80% of the bill, yeah. For a $10,000 bill, well within the realm of possibility, we'll be paying $2,000. And that's considered lucky. We're extremely fortunate to have a health insurance plan like that, because my wife works for a goddamn hospital. My coworkers, using my employer's plan, can't even afford school vaccinations for their kids.

How close is the average American to bankruptcy? One serious illness? Two? How many people put off trips to the doctor or the ER because they can't afford it because prices are so retardedly high? How many people die as a result? And this is somehow defensible? Somehow this is the best health care system in the world?

And don't give me some bullshit line about how the wait times are so much worse in places like Canada or France or the UK or Japan. If you're waiting in the ER at Grant Hospital in downtown Columbus, you're there for 6-8 hours. People die in Canada waiting for operations? Maybe. But people die in the US just waiting in the ERs. Fucking ridiculous. How do we expect to compete as a nation when we consider this to be even remotely acceptable?

 

[bomber101581]

In IA my aunt got very sick with cancer and couldnt work anymore, my uncle lost his job because of her being in the hospital and COBRA was like 900 per month, the state kicked in and helped, she didnt make it but they at least paid the docs for the treatments... a lot better than what our fed is trying to push through.

And people in other states are just ****ed?

I was in the ER recently (because my insurance doesn't cover us having our own personal doctor) for something called "Epigloic Appendagitis". The CT scan to figure out what was wrong with me cost $5,000. The emergency room fee was $1,379. And then there was a prescription for Vicodin to help with the pain until it went away in a few days. All that cost $6,379. I am lucky that I'm only paying just under $2,000 of that, and even more lucky that our flex spending account will cover all that.

For an illness that could have been appendicitis but wound up being relatively minor and clearing up in a few days. Our flex spending plan is gonna be dry. If me or my wife gets sick or injured, we're screwed. The insurance company will pay 80% of the bill, yeah. For a $10,000 bill, well within the realm of possibility, we'll be paying $2,000. And that's considered lucky. We're extremely fortunate to have a health insurance plan like that, because my wife works for a goddamn hospital. My coworkers, using my employer's plan, can't even afford school vaccinations for their kids.

How close is the average American to bankruptcy? One serious illness? Two? How many people put off trips to the doctor or the ER because they can't afford it because prices are so retardedly high? How many people die as a result? And this is somehow defensible? Somehow this is the best health care system in the world?

And don't give me some bullshat line about how the wait times are so much worse in places like Canada or France or the UK or Japan. If you're waiting in the ER at Grant Hospital in downtown Columbus, you're there for 6-8 hours. People die in Canada waiting for operations? Maybe. But people die in the US just waiting in the ERs. ****ing ridiculous. How do we expect to compete as a nation when we consider this to be even remotely acceptable?

+1

 

[Rhodes]

You know Im still waiting on someone to explain why I should have to pay for someone else to have an abortion. Health care was supposed to be a private matter isn't that at the heart of Roe v Wade? Seems the sham is pretty clear now.

 

[bomber101581]

You know Im still waiting on someone to explain why I should have to pay for someone else to have an abortion. Health care was supposed to be a private matter isn't that at the heart of Roe v Wade? Seems the sham is pretty clear now.

that we can agree on.

 

[Rhodes]

Ive a feeling if you lost some of the hopelessness and cynicism replaced it with anger and you would find we agreed on a lot. That is not a put down, we all go though the phases.

 

[bomber101581]

Ive a feeling if you lost some of the hopelessness and cynicism replaced it with anger and you would find we agreed on a lot. That is not a put down, we all go though the phases.

to quote my buddy yoda "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

I sure would be a lot happier if I lost the hopelessness and cynicism, but i fear that the things i have come to learn about the world in general in the last few years will be impossible to unlearn.

 

[Rhodes]

Given Spielberg's results in life lessons I wouldn't put much stock into his teachings.

Its time to get pissed!

 

[bomber101581]

Given Spielberg's results in life lessons I wouldn't put much stock into his teachings.

Its time to get pissed!

spielberg? nah man, george lucas

i'm not saying i never get angry, but anger clouds the mind and makes good judgment impossible.

 

[Rhodes]

It also clears the mind of indecision and weakness when it is righteous. There is a difference you know...

And yes thats Lucas but same thing applies I dont look to hollywierd for guidance.

 

[bomber101581]

It also clears the mind of indecision and weakness when it is righteous. There is a difference you know...

And yes thats Lucas but same thing applies I dont look to hollywierd for guidance.

it aint hollyweird, its star wars man!

yes, it clears the mind of indecision and weakness. thats right.