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Curmudgeon First Class
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this has probably been discussed here but I can't seem to find it.

Given the rather big difference between HP and range ammo, do you think the difference is warranted? I mean, won't range ammo kill just as dead as HP? I know the mushroom effect. But, beyond the expansion, I really can't justify the extra cost. Especially, given that I have 20 rounds to dump into a threat.
 

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Premium Member
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Range ammo sometimes isn’t loaded as consistently as some hollow point ammo, so accuracy can suffer.
In most ammo, range ammo is usually FMJ, and can punch tiny holes and pass through, which isn’t as effective as hollow points that expand. There are other types of range ammo, like frangible or target ammo, but it usually has the same “less effective than hollow points” thing going on.

All that said, yes, range ammo “can” kill just fine, if you hit the right spot, or dump enough rounds.
 

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I know this has probably been discussed here but I can't seem to find it.

Given the rather big difference between HP and range ammo, do you think the difference is warranted? I mean, won't range ammo kill just as dead as HP? I know the mushroom effect. But, beyond the expansion, I really can't justify the extra cost. Especially, given that I have 20 rounds to dump into a threat.
No.

Expanding point ammunition really does do a much better job of affecting eventual stops. Besides the question of over penetration, expanding point ammo does much more tissue damage which does tend to lead to exsanguination much quicker and more reliably.

Yes, I know that quality expanding point ammunition is more expensive but it's not that much more expensive. You can carry a full magazine or 3 and not be paying as much as buying a new gun.

Yes, use full metal jacket or the like for your range practice. Buy quality expanding point ammunition for personal defense.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)
 

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Or just be lazy like me and carry plated handloads for SD unless legally forced to keep expanding ammo, like while hunting. I've seen what both types of rounds do to the human body, both as a Marine and a paramedic. You're not supposed to stop shooting until the threat is neutralized and there are always outliers that eat bullets for breakfast and survive.
 

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King of you Monkeys
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It will work fine. FMJ is what the military uses. But HP does actually make bigger holes and more trauma. I reload and have a crap ton of HP that I reload but allow range ammo I load. I usually carry what's in my mags. Sometimes it FMJ or HP or both. Use what you can. Something is better than nothing
 

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I know this has probably been discussed here but I can't seem to find it.

Given the rather big difference between HP and range ammo, do you think the difference is warranted? I mean, won't range ammo kill just as dead as HP? I know the mushroom effect. But, beyond the expansion, I really can't justify the extra cost. Especially, given that I have 20 rounds to dump into a threat.
If you want to kill, no difference. Youre still punching a hole, that causes blood loss, that causes death. The whole purpose of the HPs is to cause that blood lose to occur quicker, give you a better chance of hitting a vital organ, popping a major artery or breaking a major bone. The plus side of HPs is that theyre also designed to dump their energy into the intended target and not perforate the target. It is a liability reduction.

Unless you live by yourself, on a farm, out in the middle of nowhere or have a kick ( i ) lawyer and tons of money to throw at someone for a wrongful death lawsuit....use HPS
 

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King of you Monkeys
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If you want to kill, no difference. Youre still punching a hole, that causes blood loss, that causes death. The whole purpose of the HPs is to cause that blood lose to occur quicker, give you a better chance of hitting a vital organ, popping a major artery or breaking a major bone. The plus side of HPs is that theyre also designed to dump their energy into the intended target and not perforate the target. It is a liability reduction.

Unless you live by yourself, on a farm, out in the middle of nowhere or have a kick ( i ) lawyer and tons of money to throw at someone for a wrongful death lawsuit....use HPS
If the HP over penetrates and hits someone or you miss and hits someone your still in the same boat.

Looking at what I have here.
I have ceramic in my 380, hydro shok in my 9mm and target loads in my 40. I dont have an issue with dumping any into a BG.

But HP is the preferred just because of the damage they inflict
 

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No longer broke...
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I know this has probably been discussed here but I can't seem to find it.

Given the rather big difference between HP and range ammo, do you think the difference is warranted? I mean, won't range ammo kill just as dead as HP? I know the mushroom effect. But, beyond the expansion, I really can't justify the extra cost. Especially, given that I have 20 rounds to dump into a threat.
You've asked the question I've asked myself for years.
I've realized there is a lot of hype and magic mushrooms in the marketing.
Going back a couple of hundred years to now we've seen a significant technological change in firearms and a significant change in ammunition.
How much is voodoo make believe?
There is no doubt that an expanding bullet increases the damage caused over a FMJ.
On the other hand entire wars have been fought and won with FMJ's.
So......I have JHP's in my guns and FMJ's in additional mags.
Would I feel inadequate with only FMJ? Absolutely not.



If you take the .40 as an example.
If a FMJ would be non fatal and a JHP would be the fatal shot you'd be within .28 inch of a fatal shot with the FMJ.
In my opinion JHP are marginally better but generally over rated and over hyped
and I'd still take 3-4 FMJ's for one hollow point wunder bullet.
 

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I Stand With Talon
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In the summer I load out with HP's... in the winter I load out with FMJ. At the standard distances in a SD incident, whether you are using HP or FMJ the odds of over penetration are pretty high. Why change for the seasons? Because in the summer I don't have to worry about someone having a heavy coat and multiple layers of clothing to penetrate, in the winter I want to make sure that the round makes it through no matter what they are wearing.
 

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Typical conversation:

- .380 is not a suitable round for home defense
* would you like to get shot with a .380 at typical home defense distances?
- no thank you


2 min later:

-FMJ’s are not suitable for home defense
* Would you like to get shot with a FMJ at typical home defense distances?
- no thank you


2 min later:
- ad nauseum
 

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Super Moderator
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Typical conversation:

Q: How many deer hunting bullets can you buy from Hornady, Nosler, Speer or any the others are not expanding point?

A: Well none, but I still think that FMJ is okay, after all I have a buddy who has been using hard cast Keith style for years. But, yeah, you're right the standard default among hunters for best performance on roughly human sized targets deer are expanding point bullets.

2 min. later...

Peace favor your sword ( mobile)
 

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King of you Monkeys
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But Flash can't be right because some other people don't believe it. Lol

It's the 270 debate just in different form.

So now I'll just carry the Governor with 410 shells.
 

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I got involved in this debate many moons ago when the military was looking to replace the 45 acp with the 9mm. The debate migrated into expanding vs non expanding. I gained a lot from that debate and have very strong feelings. Pretty set in my beliefs.

  1. penetration trumps expansion every time
  2. Bigger holes are better than smaller holes, as long as penetration does not suffer
  3. Expanding bullets hamper penetration.
If I am shooting a round known for over penetration, I use expanding bullets to limit penetration. In most cases I am perfectly fine with ball ammo. I actually prefer a cast TC. Air Force tests show that the Truncated Cone acts like a plow in soft targets, and it penetrates well to boot.
 

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I actually prefer a cast TC. Air Force tests show that the Truncated Cone acts like a plow in soft targets, and it penetrates well to boot.
According to what they showed in Lethal Weapon 3, FMJ TC will penetrate body armor. They also penetrate the buckets on front-end loaders so efficiently that they'll have enough velocity to kill the driver using the bucket as a shield while trying to run you over with it.
 

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I got involved in this debate many moons ago when the military was looking to replace the 45 acp with the 9mm. The debate migrated into expanding vs non expanding. I gained a lot from that debate and have very strong feelings. Pretty set in my beliefs.

  1. penetration trumps expansion every time
  2. Bigger holes are better than smaller holes, as long as penetration does not suffer
  3. Expanding bullets hamper penetration.
If I am shooting a round known for over penetration, I use expanding bullets to limit penetration. In most cases I am perfectly fine with ball ammo. I actually prefer a cast TC. Air Force tests show that the Truncated Cone acts like a plow in soft targets, and it penetrates well to boot.
And that is why I carry a 40 for serious social work, and a 10 mm for the woods. Truncated cone, velocity to spare, and according to guys that test the stuff, the XTP loads I build are pretty good at penetration while still expanding at the velocity I push.

That said, the .380 and the 9x18 are two of my favorite carry calibers for EDC.
 

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:)
 
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