Hollow Point vs "Range"

Discussion in 'Caliber Zone' started by Fweezal, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    The Dum Dum was the reason, but it wasn’t specifically named as banned...and it was worded so that the empires could continue to use the bullets in colonial wars against tribes and other non-European groups. Rather unsporting, what?

    “The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

    The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

    It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power. “

    So, as you said, technically we weren’t/aren’t bound by it, and thus anyone we’ve fought against or allied with is also not bound.
     
  2. DIRSUPop

    DIRSUPop Member

    It's absolutely amazing the discussion, sometimes even heated that goes on between FMJ and more exotic rounds! FMJ seems to have been relegated to "plinking" or "range" ammo, while all the "exotic" ammo has everyone excited. How short memories are.....either that, or there are no shooters over 40 years old left. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam - were all fought with FMJ ammo, all the way from .380 to .50 cal. We never saw anything except FMJ in Vietnam, and I know my dad had .380 in his 1908 Colt during WWII, and Korea (he was an INTERPOL counterintelligence agent). The military has only gone to hollow point since about 2015 from what I've heard from Marines coming back from the sandbox. FMJ IS cheaper to produce, but I wouldn't say it's unreliable, it still has to meet SAAMI specs. Shot placement has more to do with the end result than whether or not your ammo will explode a block of gelatin. However, if you're not a good shot.......
     
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  3. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    Take a valium dude. Why am I your whipping boy this week? Lighten up. The full moon is over. :lol:

    You do a lot of good things for this forum with much thanks. I appreciate that. Don't know what put a burr under your saddle.


    The round splattered. I don't give a damn what it was "designed for."
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
  4. greg_r

    greg_r Lifetime Supporter

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    it's common to run magazines full of mixed rounds to test a pistols reliability.
     
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  5. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

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    That's a lot faster than having to run full magazines of each round.
     
  6. greg_r

    greg_r Lifetime Supporter

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    yeah. a lot of the testers will come up with something like "the magazine of doom" where every round is a different profile or manufacturer.

    I had a Bersa Thunder 380 we did that to. Found out that it would feed any bullet profile, but would always hang up on S&B ammo.
     
  7. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    And everyone knew that it was less effective at the time but we used it anyway.

    Hollow point and expanding ammo, intended or designed for military use, dates back to before the U.S. Civil War.

    Depends. There's some FMJ which is designed with cavities or instabilities so that they'll deform and/or tumble on impact. The Russians pioneered this, IMS, but we jumped on the band wagon. They're harder to produce than standard lead core fmj.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  8. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    Because misinformation is still bad information.
     
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  9. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    I did a report when I was a kid in school on the exploding mini ball round from the American civil war. When looking up that up a couple of years ago I came across glass mini balls. Evidently a very devastating round.
     
  10. Dave_Jones

    Dave_Jones Member

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    I agree. I used to keep Speer Lawman for self-defense and range use. After a chat at the range during a lesson, I was convinced to get some HP. A couple of reasons: First, it's harder to shoot accurately at humans than paper targets; you might run out of rounds before your run out of targets. Thus, it behooves one to make every hit count. Second, HP will have a lower likelihood of hitting your neighbors.

    When heading for the range, I go through a ritual of dumping my expensive HP into a plastic box. Upon returning, I reverse the process.
     
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  11. Pandaz3

    Pandaz3 Member

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    Also with the Hague Convention each country had to initial/sign/endorse each paragraph/article they were going to adhere to. The USA did not sign for this particular article.

    Believe it or not, there was no internet prior to WWI, not even dial up. Most of our military got the word by reading a newspaper, or a article posted by the War department and those might not have included all those important details.

    For years the military chose and bought it's ammunition based on this confusion. That is slowly changing, we have had Special Operations people using HP for more than 20 years and it is starting to bleed over to regular troops.

    Anyway just another of 'Trump's Chumps' here, Bing and Duck Duck Go are your friends (Not sure of Google)
     
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  12. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Or they played along with the idea that we should follow "the rules of war" even if the politicians didn't.

    Or they bought it because penetration was what they were really after, considering the lack of stand and deliver rank and file battles with men shooting at each other while standing 200 yards apart, and the reports from Korea about failures to penetrate the Chinese cotton cold weather gear. Another reason for fast small bullets, as well.

    Not saying you are wrong, just saying there are other possibilities.:thumbsup:
     
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  13. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    I kinda have my doubts about that. I've seen several different, non-authoritative, references to what was and was not stopped, at what ranges, etc. I've also seen several, equally non-authoritative, attempts to either confirm (either through logic or tests) or to debunk these claims.

    At the moment, for me anyway, it kinda holds a place as a sort of Urban Legend. Maybe it's true but I can't really find solid, supported, vetted, evidence.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  14. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Yes. It was reported by the soldiers as a real thing, and also applied to the M1 Carbine being not enough gun; and was definitely used as a rationale by the Army ordnance folks to justify the M14 and .308; probably in earnest because they believed it...but most people today think it was actually just bad marksmanship.

    BUT...that belief or rationale ALSO would apply to the military buying ammo that penetrated better.

    Which, BTW we are still trying to get, even with 5.56 M885 green tip "penetrator" and other stuff like the Mk318 SOST.
     
  15. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Sure.

    When I say "non-authoritative," that also includes many of the people who were there. I've read several vets who said that the 30 carbine wouldn't penetrate the chinese winter coats but they were always repeating "common knowledge." There are a few accounts of "I shot him and he didn't fall down immediately." But there was never any accounts of "I shot him with the 30 carbine and he didn't fall down, then my buddy shot him with the M1 and he fell down, then we took his coat off and found the 30 carbine bullet." What seems more likely is that either 1) he shot at the chinese soldier and missed but thought he hit or 2) he wounded the soldier, who then ran off and died later or got treated.

    I've seen any number of people doing experimental tests. They'd shoot a lot of heavy wool layers. Sometimes they'll soak then freeze a lot of wool layers then shoot them. I'm pretty sure that I even saw a guy years ago who ran the numbers on air density due to the temperatures then reduced his hand-load to mimic the expected velocity, then shot a bunch of layers of heavy wool. In all cases the 30 carbine penetrates.

    Here's one example:
    https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-36-frozen-clothing-and-the-box-o-truth/

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  16. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    For giggles, I decided to run the Frozen Chosin ballistics myself. Reported temperatures were as low as -36 degrees F. The altitude for Chosin Reservoir is 2360 feet above sea level.

    I used the Bison Ballistics online calculator at: https://bisonballistics.com/calculators/ballistics

    For the bullet, I selected the Sierra FMJ Pro-Hunter .308 (.30 Carbine Bullet) Model 2015.

    100 Yard zero, wind speed 0, and humidity 0 (because it was -36 degrees), and the wiki reported standard muzzle velocity for .30 Carbine 110gr of 1990 fp/s

    The result is the ballistics of a 30 carbine in Frozen Chosin at 100 yards had a velocity of 1547 fp/s. If it had been 75 degrees and sunny, the bullet would have had a velocity of 1612 at 100 yards that day at Chosin Reservoir. And if they would have been shooting at sea level on a sunny 75 degee day, the bullet would have had a velocity of 1582 at 100 yards.

    So, at worst, a difference of 65 fp/s between a warm day and a -36 day at Chosin. Based on the many tests floating around out there of .30 Carbine vs heavy clothing, even frozen solid clothing, there is no doubt at all that a .30 Carbine would have penetrated the Chinese winter clothing, even when <cough> only traveling at 1547 fp/s at impact.

    I exported a cvs for the Fozen Chosin day:

    Bullet,110.0 gr. Sierra FMJ Pro-Hunter (2105) - .308 (7.62mm)
    Muzzle Velocity,1990.0,fps
    Angle of Fire,0.0,degrees
    Wind Speed,0.0,mph
    Wind Heading,90.0,degrees
    Temperature,-39.0,ºF
    Pressure,26.582430442863153,mmHg
    Altitude,2360.0,feet
    Humidity,0.0,%
    Sight Height,1.5,in
    Zero Range,100.0,yards
    Range,Velocity,Time of Flight,Elevation,Windage
    yards,fps,s,MOA,MOA
    0.0,1990.0,0.0015075402603482058,0.0,0.0
    100.0,1546.9421879502775,0.17282681256946392,0.0009748735831743797,0.0
    200.0,1197.2049268217702,0.3946898878823658,-6.3670229717121805,0.0
    300.0,973.4931707164004,0.6752505608458486,-16.274667645862202,0.0
    400.0,853.8684306249492,1.0062991653051918,-29.930023979427972,0.0
    500.0,774.2486261163962,1.3763817024069505,-47.212778651937235,0.0
    600.0,710.9843849647657,1.7818139087719953,-67.97510950055435,0.0
    700.0,656.5084686808549,2.2224013382520016,-92.22175436207718,0.0
    800.0,608.145963376576,2.699631708895689,-120.10065463749119,0.0
    900.0,564.708443632861,3.2155331063209243,-151.87175863027616,0.0
    1000.0,525.1302263895001,3.7729623706413222,-187.89057307194392,0.0​

    Bison Ballistics Calculator for 30 Carbine at Frozen Chosin.png

    Sierra Pro-Hunter 30 Carbine FMJ.png
    [Sierra Pro-Hunter 30 Carbine (.308) FMJ]

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
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  17. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    Can't say, "without a doubt" until you've been to combat and seen the crazy shit that happens out there.

    So it's not impossible, just highly unlikely. These jackets weren't skin tight and it's extremely likely that the observers of these events saw a clean impact that passed straight through the jacket due to the angle of attack, thickness of the jacket, and/or the space between the jacket and the body due to poor sizing or multiple layers of clothing for warmth.
     
  18. It wasn't THAT long ago when there weren't hollow points being used. Cops used 158gr. lead .38 spls. They worked quite well. I still have some. I bet it will still do the job....inexpensively.
     
  19. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    [​IMG] I was wondering if you had a squirrel running around inside you head. Apparently it's on the outside :lol:
     
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  20. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    They were dirt common by the early 80's. Winchester Silvertip hollow points were used at the infamous '86 FBI Miami Dade shootout. Their perceived failure to penetrate sufficiently (because they expanded, ims) is one of the reasons that we now have the FBI ammunition protocol.

    I contest that claim, quite vigorously. First, I'm guessing when you refer to the 158gr. lead .38 SPL, you're referring to the vaunted "FBI Load." That was a +P and typically the bullet was a "lead semi-wadcutter hollow point bullet." They were hollow points.

    [​IMG]

    Secondly, the classic LRN police .38 was notorious for under-performing. It was such a well reported phenomenon that officers who could afford it would use a .357 Magnum with a Keith style bullet and handloaders would try to sneak their way into a hollow point bullet by loading a Hollow Base Wadcutter in the case backwards in an effort to help the .38 SPL perform better than the old LRN bullets.

    https://americanhandgunner.com/our-experts/the-sixgunner/heavy-defensive-loads/
    https://www.google.com/search?q=load+a+hollow+base+wadcutter+backwards+38

    Standard Pressure .38SPL LRN has a terrible reputation as a defensive load.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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