How accurate is "good enough?"

Discussion in 'General Firearms Discussion' started by Branth, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. Branth

    Branth Member

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    Here's a series of questions for you:

    How accurate is "good enough" for the following types of guns:

    1. Hunting rifle

    2. Varmint rifle

    3. Defensive rifle

    4. Pistol-caliber carbine

    5. Defensive Handgun

    6. .22 rifle for small game/practice shooting

    I'll start out with my opinions:

    1. I want sub-MOA for a hunting rifle, preferably on the order of 1/2 MOA with handloads.

    2. Same as the hunting rifle, but flatter-shooting high velocity loads.

    2. Defensive rifle would be up to 2 MOA for me, maybe as far as 3

    3. I wouldn't expect a PCC to reach out past maybe 150, so 6 MOA or so should be fine

    4. Handguns are a mite bit fuzzier. If I can keep all the shots within an 8" circle at 25 yards, I'll consider that adequate

    5. I would expect 4MOA or better out of a .22
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2014
  2. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    I try to keep things "simple" with what I require out of my firearms, and my version of simple might not line up with everyone else, but it keeps me happy. I decide on a max distance I would want to engage at comfortably with each weapon and set my accuracy expectations from there.

    For example:

    1. Hunting Rifle - Based on my AO I wouldn't attempt to engage outside of 300 yards unless absolutely necessary and practice shooting 2" groups at 3" targets at that range. I chose a .308 but have considered stepping up in the future.

    2. Varmint Rifle - Same as above but I went with a 5.56.

    3. & 4. Defensive Rifle and Pistol Caliber Carbine - I live in a suburban environment and would not engage outside of 100 yard and shoot sub-moa at 1" targets at 100 yards. If I had to go defensive outside of 100 yards I would grab the .308 or 5.56.

    5. Handgun - I TRY to shoot 6-8" groups at 50 yards. I still need to put some more trigger on my handguns to get back in to the groove again. Handguns are difficult because there are so many variables involved with how to train. Multiple targets, fire rate, distance, etc. For me slow-fire is 10 rounds in 20 seconds, which to some is rapid fire. For me, rapid-fire is a double-tap on a single target or engaging multiple targets in succession with a reload involved.

    6. .22 Rifle - I expect to only engage with it at a maximum of 100 yards and shoot sub-moa at 1" targets at that range but have practiced and trained to shoot 1 MOA at 200 yards if necessary.

    7. Shotguns - I'll throw those as well since they are double duty with home defense and turkey hunting - For shot, I pattern at 40 yards and practice at 50. For slugs I dialed myself in on 3" targets from 75 yards but do take shots at 6" targets from 100 yards I'm still learning the ins and outs of patterning but the interwebz is awesome.

    Like I said, I have great and occasionally delusional expectations of myself and my weapons, but I try to get the results I want without blowing the budget. The Marines taught me a few things, one being that even though the gear isn't shiny or new it can exceed performance expectations if you take the time to learn it's quirks.
     

  3. shepherd321

    shepherd321 Supporting Member

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    sub moa for hunting rifles is 2k and up for the set up if your lucky. 2 moa is good for actually hunting in PA.
    22LR sub MOA for a hunting weight rifle at 100 yards. I call B.S.
     
  4. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member

    Really?....... I'm not a good shot, and I had a savage 110 in .270 I hand loaded for that I could shoot cloverleafs with..... No where near 2k....
     
  5. Hermitt

    Hermitt Hey! Get Off My Lawn! Member

    I love target shooting, so anything in the bullseye is pretty good for me.

    ....and if shooting to kill something... Minute of Dead is good enough..... ;)
     
  6. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    NE Utah
    Ummm...no, about the $2k hunting rifle requirement.

    There are at least four guns that guarantee sub MOA for under $1000. There are MANY guns for under $1000 that will do it, but don't guarantee it. Savage will do it for $300.;)

    Read this.

    http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/minute-of-angle-moa-accuracy-out-of-the-box/


    You need to go to rimfire central, and check out the modified 10/22 threads, the CZ threads, and several other makers.

    It's not easy, but it's very very common.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  7. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    My $275 770 in .308 with a $75 scope and hand rolled ammo does 2" 5-shot groups at 300 yards from the bench or self-supported.

    My 10/22 with the heavy barrel, laminated thumbhole stock, and decent optics is a tack driver at 100 yards dropping sub-moa 5-shot groups inside 1" targets from any standard position I've tried with it.
     
  8. planosteve

    planosteve Lifetime Supporter

    My hunting rifle is a Ruger American 30-06. If I do my part I can keep 4 shots under an inch at 100 yards, I have shot it at 200 and the group is about 2 to 2 1/2 inches. This is with factory ammo so it is more than adequate for my needs.

    My 4595 is zeroed at 50 and I can keep a mag full in the kill zone of a zombie head all day with it. So it is good enough.

    My Ruger American 22 lr and 22 mag are good, with the correct ammo the 22 lr will shoot under 1/2 inch at 75 yards (that ammo is CCI 40gr Mini Mags). The 22 mag will do under an inch at 100. More than good enough for my uses.

    Pistols are different, my MK II with SV Match ammo will shoot under 1/2 inch at 25 when I use a rest and take my time. My 2 SD pistols, 357 Sig and 9 mm are minute of zombie, so again they get the job done.

    I really don't do target shooting any more so I have relaxed my standards.

    Shotgun with slugs, 4 inches at 50, but with just a bead site that is pretty good, and with that size hole it should get the job done.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  9. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    34,826
    11,308
    NE Utah
    Not a chance. Well, there's a chance, but it's crazy expensive, or lucky, or a lot of work, that isn't necessary.

    1 MOA shot by an expert will hit within 4 inches at 400 yards....that's two inches on either side of your aiming point.

    That's far more than adequate for most hunting, anywhere.

    As for the varmint rifle..sub MOA, just because of distances and small targets.

    Defensive meaning what? 100 yard rapid fire, or 400 yard keeping them back out of range for their AK?

    The 400 yard thing, yeah, ok, that's easily minute of man, an 8" circle.

    An AK isn't usually seen as 2-3 MOA, but it's definitely adequate for defensive work under 200-300 yards, in most opinions.


    What? My 995 is about 1.5 MOA at 25, I'm sure it would open up, but I'd want 4 MOA, at least.


    Slow aimed fire? I want under 3 inches, without a rest. I want to hit the head if I choose to shoot there.

    Revolver...I might want better if it's a scoped up hunting gun.


    I want 2 MOA minimum. That's squirrel heads at 50.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2014
  10. Branth

    Branth Member

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    Edit to fix messed up numbers.
     
  11. Branth

    Branth Member

    6,275
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    True, if you're a perfect shot. I plan on me not being the best, so add in 1 or 2 MOA of shooter error. The gun should be sub MOA, though. A lot of newer fairly cheap rifles are half-MOA out of the box with good handloads. It's doable, it just takes some load development and a bit of luck with your barrel.

    Little from column A, little from column B. Realistically, defensive shooting would be up close, probably within 100 and definitely within 200, but I'd like to be able to reach out to 4 or so if I really need to. That, and I have a minor obsession with accuracy - I prefer all of my rifles to be able to perform well above what is "necessary"

    I'm listing my minimum requirements. Considering that most pistol rounds arc like rainbows past 100 or 200 yards, my feeling is that they don't need to be super-accurate since I would be pushing their range at 150yds.

    I could see that. I'm coming at it from shooting IDPA (8" down-0 zone) and not seeing any distances much further than 25 yards.

    Reasonable.
     
  12. I dont know. Maybe im not as cool as you.

    This is my yearly routine.

    Take chosen hunting rifle, Either, 30-30, savage .243 or 20GA shot gun. Depending on where i am hunting.

    Sit down the ground 50 yards away. support fore hand on my knee.

    Shoot 5 shots of Remington, Winchester or some other mass produced ammo.

    Look at my group. if it looks good. I take it.

    I think you make it more difficult than it needs to be. I have never taken more than one shot at a deer. Always hit the vitals. Never wished my gun was more accurate.

    Note: I dont shoot at anything passed 200 yards. Living in the mountains that's not likely
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2014
  13. Target Rifles, I want 1MOA. realisticly i just look to have fun. And i do that plinking. So MOC, Minute of can,Jar, 2 liter bottle. Makes me happy.
     
  14. Branth

    Branth Member

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    Oh, I've been told that a great many times. I think too much for my own good sometimes. I was just curious what everyone else thought was "good enough" and discussing just how accurate various guns needed to be.
     
  15. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member


    They need to be juuuuust accurate enough that you know who's fault it is when you miss a shot!..
     
  16. EXACTLY.

    My dad did the same thing I do. At the same Oak tree that marks 50.5 yards from the target :p

    he only ever had 2 boxes of ammo. it lasted him years at a time.

    he would say "once my gun is sighted in, i only shoot 7 rounds a year"

    5 shot group at the beginning of the season. 2 deer and 2 shots later he was at his 7 shot limit.

    The point is, he would make sure he could hit kill zone all 5 shots, a target almost as big as the normal 8x11 paper.

    So if all his shots were inside the 6 or 7 ring off hand shooting. He knew missing the ENTIRE DEER it was his fault.
     
  17. I have steel plates of various sizes and distances set up.
    I feel I'm doing pretty good if they are ringing using iron sights.
     
  18. MaryB

    MaryB Supporting Member

    On my Savage Axis 223 sub MOA at 100 yards with hand loads, same for the AR I built, at 600 yards both are MOA ground hog and that is good enough for me!
     
  19. Hermitt

    Hermitt Hey! Get Off My Lawn! Member

    You must have bionic eyes to see a ground hog @600 yards...... :eek: I can barely see 'em @100..... :p
     
  20. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    34,826
    11,308
    NE Utah
    Or it's scoped!:p. Like most ARs these days.