Hi-Point Firearms Forums banner
1 - 20 of 48 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Missouri concealed carry law states:
(15) Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by means of one or more signs displayed in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The owner, business or commercial lessee, manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;
My employer has posted at all entrances legal "No Firearms" signs. I believe their lawyers suggested it shortly after Missouri passed the License to Carry. I would like to pursue "authorization" to carry at work. Has anybody had to do this? I was hoping someone had been down this road before and had a copy of the letter they submitted so I could look it over. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,442 Posts
ask your employer if he is willing to accept the liability of taking away his employes ability to defend themselves. inform him that when he takes that ability away, he becomes responsible and more importanly LIABLE for your safety. Find out what is more important to him- a legally licensed employee carrying a concealed weapon that no one knows about, or a potentially multi-million dollar liability for injury because he removed your ability to defend yourself.

SW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,844 Posts
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd love to see where this has been tried in open court - any case law interpretation.

It is perfectly legal for the employer to say no - it's written into the law. While I agree with asking, etc. the logic that they are assuming responsibility for "protecting" you, is the same responsibility the state has assumed, isn't it? So if I get mugged and seriously hurt, can I sue the state for not allowing me to protect myself? I mean, it's the law. They are protecting me by staffing a police force, right?

I'm just thinking out loud here. I'd love to see one of these go to court.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I haven't brought anything up yet with the powers that be but did bring it up in conversation in the break room. The general thought was that the lawyers asked them to put the signs up so that they could claim that they weren't liable in the case of some type of gun violence. I guess I need to find a law suit by someone that was denied the right to carry and couldn't protect themselves at work to include in my letter.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,442 Posts
the police/state issue has already been decided in court. neither had any responsibility to protect you. in a private setting however it is a different story. if they deny you the right to protect yourself, they accept the liability. its no different than a company that refuses an employee proper safety equipment (hard hats, goggle etc) any injury resulting from said refusal is on the companies head. in this case a firearm is a piece of safety equipment. it protects you from violence just like a hard hat protects your gourd from falling objects.

SW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,844 Posts
I see the safety equipment analogy differently. Safety equipment by and large is required by law. This is why OSHA can fine you and put you in jail for not letting your employees, or not providing it, etc. Firearms are not required. The law gives you permission under certain circumstances, doesn't say you must carry. The law also gives permission for said owner to say, not in my place. Therefore, the law, the state, and so on down to the owner, because he's following the law (right?) - all are not liable for your protection.

A firearm does not protect you from violence in the same way a hard-hat protects you from a falling brick.

It's sort of like questioning the umpires call at home plate.

Hey - I was safe!!!!

What did the ump say?

He said I was OUT!

Well, then you're out.

I want to agree with you btw!!! I'm just offering another POV. Is the post office liable to "protect you" since you cannot carry there either?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
By default, churches in Ohio are no-carry zones. They may, however, choose to allow concealed carry. I approached the pastor very formally... "Hey Dad, I think we should allow concealed carry!"... and made a presentation to the church board. They put it in writing and filed it to make it official in case there was an incident. We have several CCW holders that attend and although we don't broadcast it, there does seem to be a real calm about it. When there've been church shootings in the past, and they're being discussed on Sunday morning, it sort of feels like the congregants know that they'd be safer in our church.

When people ask me why I carry in "safe" places like the mall or church, instead of coming across as paranoid I just tell them that it's safer on me than in the car where it might be stolen and that the majority of accidents take place during un-holstering/re-holstering just like the majority of plane emergencies occur during takeoffs and landings.

Good luck. After losing a job over the issue of concealed-carry, I've been blessed to have very understanding employers for the past several years.

-'bridge
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,442 Posts
point taken. the post office being a governemtn entity is exempt from liability i think.

this has become an interesting quandry. the OP may want to conisder consulting an attorney on this. the owner is well within thier right to restrict CCW but the liability thing is a grey area. i know after one of the mall shooting a couple years ago there was a lawsuit against the mall for not having adequate security but it was sttled out of court so no help there.

SW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,844 Posts
yet again, we demonstrate the power of this forum. I've seen posters on other forums come to blows over this very question.

Pretty cool how we can help each other and value other POV's. Well done.

I work in MD. We've had people shot in our parking lot, for real. I'd love to be able to carry at work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Cdbillups what kind of work do you do? I work in a facility that is state funded so we cant CC on he job and we cant keep a gun in our cars.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'm a computer programmer for an electric co-op. You have to drive through a security gate (it's left open during business hours) to get into our parking lot. After hours that gate is closed and you have to call Dispatch to get in and out. The town it's located in has around 2400 people in it. Everyone knows everyone and crime is almost non-existent. Here's a copy of what I sent to our HR person and her reply.
Are minutes from past board meetings easily accessible? I'd like to read over the minutes from the board meeting where the resolved to put the "no concealed firearms" signs up. I'm just curious as to their reasoning behind the decision, who suggested it, who voted for it, etc. I've read through our Personnel Policy Manual and don't see any policies that directly address it. I've heard that the lawyers asked for the signs to cover company liability in case of an incident.

Also, according to the statute (included at the end of this memo) an employee with a valid license to carry can seek authorization by their employer to carry on the property. On the days where I car pool with my wife, leaving it in the car is not an option since she does not have a valid license to carry and cannot have it in the car in the school parking lot. Currently, on those days, I have to leave it at home and I'm really not comfortable doing that. I'd like to know what my options are. Would I be allowed to carry in the building? Could I lock it in a case in my bag? Could a trial period be setup; carry for a few weeks and if no one raises any complaints, carry permanently? The key word in concealed carry is concealed. When done properly, no one knows it's there.

In order for a person to receive a license to carry in the state of Missouri they have to undergo a strenuous Federal background check. They have to be fingerprinted and are checked by the local Sherriff's office and then checked again on the Federal level. They cannot have pled guilty or been convicted of any felonies or weapons-related misdemeanors. They also cannot have been convicted or pled guilty to any violent misdemeanor in the past five years or have been convicted or pled guilty of two or more misdemeanors involving DWI or possession or abuse of a controlled substance in the past five years. I would say, anyone that could pass the interview to be hired here could be trusted to carry here. I believe over the past year I've proven myself to be a mentally stable, responsible adult that would not endanger my co-workers.

(15) Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by means of one or more signs displayed
in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The
owner, business or commercial lessee, manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons
holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the
employer, holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises
are open to the public, the employer of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is
prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the
vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry
endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;
Her Response:
Thank you for your honesty. We both know you could have been doing this and no one would have known anything. Once again I say thank you for your good judgment and values!

This, of course, will be something I will share with -name removed-. My question, and I believe -name removed-'s question will be, why do you feel the need to do this? Is it because of security at home? Is it because someone is looking for you? Is it because you have the right to ask and are applying those rights?

I can look into this, and you would be welcome to go through the minutes, but I would not be certain we would find anything in the minutes. And, there is no index available. We would need to know a general time when these signs were installed and look at minutes prior to that time. Someone with longevity here could possibly tell us when they were installed.

If you want to answer the above questions, fine. If not, fine. I will talk with -name removed- and let you know.

Thanks!
How would you answer the bolded text?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,844 Posts
Couple of thoughts: first, wow, what a great dialogue! This is a great first step and you did very well - and so did she.

- you may offer to go talk to MR. XXX with her and explain why you are asking
- her questions about imminent danger, being followed, danger at home appear to be worrying about you bringing problems with you.
- you may wish to compile a list of examples from "safe" places that became not so safe (church shootings, colleges, restaurants, etc.).
- not to read into anything too much - but her tone on "exercising your rights" comes across a little as being a trouble-maker. So, offering to talk in-person may avoid the "I don't like the answer or how you asked the question so I want to talk to Mr. XXX myself.
- you may offer as a service to Mr. XXX to ask others who may be interested and to work as a team, give training to the non-carriers, on why, etc. Who knows, maybe this turns into a "carrying" workplace in which people feel safer knowing there are protectors around, versus banking on the odds that none will be needed.

Well done!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
My response:
I think we can both agree that the world we live in now is not the world our grandparents grew up in. I understand that Palmyra is a sleepy little town of a few thousand people but it's not immune to the world's problems. When we were looking for houses to rent in Palmyra a year ago, one we looked at had a stabbing occur just down the street from it. Going back further than that, an escaped convict from Iowa tried to car jack someone just over the hill from where we live currently. We can look at the recent events in Hannibal as well. Good Samaritans trying to help people in need are beaten to death, or have their car stolen. A pastor that I took my concealed carry class with had a drive by shooting occur across the street from where he lived. I believe the statement "when seconds count, a cop is only minutes away" might best describe it. You can compare it to fire extinguishers if you like. We keep them around, we train our employees on how to use them, and we pray we never have to pick one up. Someone with a license to carry doesn't carry a firearm because they want to use it. They carry it praying that they'll never have to use it but knowing they'll be prepared if the situation ever comes up.

I also believe that it's my duty to protect my family using whatever tools are available to me. Before I started here, our house was broken into. I still think my girls have nightmares about it. They know that had it happened while we were home I would have done everything in my power to stop the situation from happening. I don't see it as being paranoid or thinking that there are bad people hiding everywhere. I look at it more as being prepared for a situation that nobody wants to think about. People with their license to carry aren't vigilantes looking to hunt down and execute criminals. They're just regular folks that want to provide a level of security to themselves and their family and friends. I believe the greatest weapon we possess is our mind, a firearm (or knife, or our hands) are just tools we can use.

Home invasions, shootings at churches or schools, and work place violence is on the rise. With the current economy and job loss rate, I expect it to continue to rise. Criminals don't take the time to read the signs we've posted and have no problems entering "No Firearm" locations fully armed. The most recent incident at Virginia Tech proves this further. Had someone been armed they could have stopped him from decapitating someone with a steak knife.
I'm also going to let her know that I'd be willing to talk with him when she does to answer any questions he may have. I may pull another CCW employee in with me.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,300 Posts
I disregard my company's policy. Good or bad, that's what I do. Several of the higher ups are aware of it, and they turn a blind eye. They think I'm a bit of nut and don't fully understand why, but they also know that I am competent and trained.
how to answer those questions? I think you already have answered them, given the dialogue you relayed. I would plainly state that no one is looking for you, unless of course they are, and also that you are exercising a right given by the Constitution AND regulated by the state of MO.
I can personally say it's because I carry thousands of dollars worth of equipment and would not part with it without some bloodshed. My employers understand and appreciate that. I want to know how this plays out for you, and I do think getting another CCW involved might be a good idea. I've not heard of anyone challenging the right to carry in a workplace. Seriously, please keep us informed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,578 Posts
They key here is respect, to both the employer and the employee. And, in this case there is a TON of it going on...very awesome :D

While you are interested in asserting their rights, we have to remember the rights of the company. It IS private property, and nothing in an employment contract says we HAVE to work where we do. In situations like this, the company does take the liability for your safety. This is why they carry workman's compensation insurance and submit to OSHA inspections in order to ensure that safety. This can arguably be included in that list of precautions taken to ensure a worker's safety.

But, at the same time, the employer does exert the right to manage what goes on under their roof, in order to ensure the maximum level of safety for themselves and their employees. This is why, while there is freedom of speech in this country, many companies do not allow cameras or cell phones with camera attachments into development or manufacturing portions of the plant. Conceal carry can also carry the same discression. While it is your right, it could also be a workplace hazard.

This is why it's better to go to your employer like you did: With courtesy and respect, citing your rights but NOT in a list of demands. You are in a partnership with your employer, as they are with you. Some companies (like Nike) have a GREAT history of communication with their employees and some (like Disney) think they own you and will use lawyers to dictate every movement in your life. This is why choosing an employer to fit YOUR lifestyle as well as your career and financial needs is key.

For an example: The cab company I work for part time does NOT allow ANY form of weapon NO MATTER WHAT PERMIT YOU HAVE! Now, this doesn't mean I am in legal trouble if I do carry one as long as I have the proper permits. They simply state DIRECTLY in the contract in very plain words that if ANY weapon (Mace, Pepper Spray, any MagLite over 2D cell batteries, Pistol, PDW, Shotgun, Rifle, Taser/stun gun, club, ASP, baton, brass knuckles, knife, etc) is found in your possession, they will terminate your lease contract. Here the employer has outlined specific actions they will take and what they DO prohibit. Now, they do NOT say they will seek legal action, and they aknowledge that is company policy, and NOT law. So, for me, I conceal carry knowing full well the actions that can be taken against me.

The reason for this is the constant reports of cab drivers being shot with their own weapons or having elements like pepper spray backfiring on them (chemical spray in an enclosed car? Not too bright...). But, when leasing one of their machines I can understand how it is THEIR RIGHT to dictate what is carried inside of it. Now, when I am OUTSIDE of the cab, I am not under such contractual obligations because I do not wear a badge or uniform that denotes my association with the cab company. Therefore if an incident occurs to me outside of the car, that is legal no man's land, and I am only at terms with the state and federal law, not the cab company. So, conceivably if I were to encounter an incident OUTSIDE of my car when I am NOT driving, then regardless if I possess a weapon or not, the company has no influence over me.

On the flipside at my OTHER job, I do NOT conceal carry at the theater (and when I start my new job at the other theater at ASU, I cannot legally carry there due to it being University property). The reason I don't carry nor allow any of my stagehands to carry (and yes, I said I do NOT allow my stagehands to carry), is that the liability is too great. We work around high voltage equipment, explosive chemicals and various people of varying ages and maturities. Also, we use "prop" firearms and weapons in many shows, and have a cache of these items in the theater, many of which look VERY close if not indistinguishable from the real thing. I know, because I made them :angel:. This is also combined with the fact that the owners of the theater have PERSONALLY asked not to have firearms brought in. I respect the theater owner's wishes and understand the MANY points he comes from when he made this request, and it was made plain to me that he had a hard time asking me personally about it because everyone in the company knows I am an avid shooter and have given instruction to many of their actors in the fields of shooting, weapons handling and the like for stage use. So, I respect their wishes. Of course, I keep my pistol in my bike at ALL TIMES, but this is outside of the theater and locked in the glovebox. of course, it's fairly easy to access if I DO need it since the bike is parked litterally outside the front door of the theater on the sidewalk, and many in the company know that I do keep a weapon in my bike simply because it's just something I do. I don't expose them to it simply because I respect their feelings and wishes, and I think this in a way has changed many of their perceptions of an "average" gun owner to someone they know and trust who is ALSO a gun owner.

Each situation is different, but the key is respect to BOTH parties. It's not a matter of one person blocking another's rights, but each party RESPECTING the rights the other is exercising.

I say that email went rather well
 

·
You know who I am
Joined
·
9,304 Posts
We aren't supposed to carry where I work, or even have firearms on the premises. Our office has been broken into several times in the past, and the area where our office is has a rather high crime rate. Everybody at work knew I carried anyway, and after it came to more attention than I cared for it to, a memo was sent out by the boss informing everyone on the front page in bold letters that weapons were not permitted on the job. Discussing this with the boss has led nowhere, so basically I just said screw them. To me, my job is not worth that much. I carry anyway, and I keep a shottie in my truck sometimes. If they want to fire me over it, they can go ahead, they won't find someone to replace me anyways so it'll be their loss. I don't carry just to spite them, I carry because I feel threatened around there, especially when I'm the only one working and have to walk through an alleyway with no lighting into our parking lot with no lighting in the middle of the night and wee hours of the morning sometimes. During the summer I was at our office working on the servers until about 2am. I had my Maverick 88 with me (I bring it inside after everyone else leaves lol) and went outside, down the alley and saw 2 cars in the parking lot. I took cover behind the air conditioner, switched off the safety and watched to make sure they didn't see or hear me. There were 2 cars out there, cash was exchanged as well as a standard size ziplock bag full of white powder. That was the event that made the decision that I would carry regardless. Even after informing the boss of that happening he still doesn't want to listen to the reasons to carry, he's too paranoid about lawsuits or some crap. You'd just have to know him...logic has no place with him, it's just whatever his opinion about it.

Anyway, sorry to rant. That's just my take. My pistol(s) go with me everywhere unless there is a metal detector or a pat down involved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
I dig you man.... I carried once where it was "prohibited"...and i think it may have saved my lilfe or something else. I pulled the .45 and the guy left without problem. Carried by 6 or judged by 12. That night I would have rather been judged by 12 and i ended up on top and with my life...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,442 Posts
i carry i places where it is verboten as well. my job takes me into bars, liquor stores, and other places of "ill repute" to collect large amounts of cash. In SD you arent supposed to carry anywhere there is liquor sold but i do it anyway. in the event of a situation, i dont know a single jury that would convict someone in my position for carrying the means to defend themselves. if i never need it, no one is the wiser. its illegal, yes but see the above comment about being carreid by six.

SW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,844 Posts
We should probably close this thread. Just about all POV's have been made and respected. It's probably not a great idea to mention any voluntary disregard for legal practices in open forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,349 Posts
We should probably close this thread. Just about all POV's have been made and respected. It's probably not a great idea to mention any voluntary disregard for legal practices in open forum.
I certainly respect that opinion, but my opinion is that sometimes gun owners are so worried about staying legal that they refuse to take the initiative to disobey laws that shouldn't exist (such as AWB laws), or if they do, they keep silent about the law and nobody knows that there is as much opposition as there really is.
 
1 - 20 of 48 Posts
Top