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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
bobotech said in my thread asking for someone to load me some SP 7.62x51 NATO that it's illegal for someone to load me some ammo unless they have a license. Is that true? State-by-state issue?

I just want 10 rounds... :(
 

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http://www.atf.treas.gov/faqs.htm

(A4) What kinds of ammunition are covered by the GCA? [Back]
Ammunition includes cartridge cases, primers, bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm.
Items NOT covered include blank ammunition, tear gas ammunition, pellets and nonmetallic shotgun hulls without primers.
Generally, no records are required for ammunition transactions. However, information about the disposition of armor piercing ammunition is required to be entered into a record by importers, manufacturers, and collectors.
A license is not required for dealers in ammunition only.
[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17) and 922(b)(5), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.125]

(F11) Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition? [Back] No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only, but a manufacturer or an importer of ammunition must be licensed.
[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

(H3) May a person licensed as a manufacturer of firearms also manufacture ammunition? [Back]
Yes. The person may also manufacture ammunition (not including destructive device ammunition or armor piercing ammunition) without obtaining a separate license as a manufacturer of ammunition.

(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Back]
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]
 

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So if the person reloaded the ammunition and sold it to someone else for the cost it took them to produce the round, or just to help another person out, they do not need the license? Correct or am I reading the above incorrectly?
 

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You would be in a very grey area. "Personal use" is specifically allowed while selling at cost is not addressed specifically by ATF. Most likely the act of selling would be considered to be selling for profit and it would be up to you to prove otherwise before they are convinced otherwise.

In any event, ammunition excise tax would probably be due since the ONLY exemption from that is personal use. That's another division of ATF.
 

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Doesn't seem like a grey area to me. If you aren't trying to make a business out of it, you should be good to go.

(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Back]
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]
P.S. it wouldn't be up to you to prove that you weren't making a business of it, the burden is on the Govt to prove that you are.
 

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An ATF agent comes across two guys selling reloads at a gun show. The first guy has 100rds of 9mm for $12 and the second guy has identical reloads for sale at $20 per 100. Neither has an FFL. Both claim they are selling at cost when asked.

Does anybody here truly believe he is just going to say "OK guys, good luck not making any money with your hobby" and walk on? There is also the excise tax issue, any ammunition reloaded for sale is taxable, only personal use ammo is exempted. Profit or not makes no difference.
 

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I am against reloading for liability reasons, not so much worrying about the ATF getting pissy about you engaging in reselling.

The liability of reloading ammo is what can get a home loader in deep doodoo. Think about it for a minute. I load up some ammo, say 308 hunting ammo. I then accidently put way too much powder into one shell with a heavy bullet. I then give it to you and say "happy hunting". You go out in the woods or even just to the range and shoot away. You get that one overcharge and shoot your old milsurp rifle and it kabooms on you and takes out one or both of your eyes.

If you bought factory ammo, you could sue the ammo manufacturer and get compensation from their insurance. If you were given reloads from someone that you know, then you would sue that person for making dangerous ammo that maimed you.

Liability is my concern, not the business end of it. If you loaded the ammo and you were sued, you could lose a lot.

There is a reason for the mantra of "never shoot someone else's reloads" on the various loading boards. I have bought reloads from a gun show and the first thing I do when I get home and pull the bullets and dump the powder into the ground and reload with my known loads.
 

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I don't see any other option really.

Besides suing people is for pussies. If someone does something to you and you don't like it, you kick their anus.
That sounds like the logical thing to do but when you lose an eye or sustain a bad facial injury that ends up costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in repair or heaven forbid, it kills you, then your insurance company or you or your loved ones WILL go after the responsible party.

I would never ever reload for some stranger on the internet even if I "knew" them.

Just go buy a freaking box of ammo from some store and be done with it. Don't place your life into the hands of some complete internet stranger who may be poorer than church mice.

I would never want to lose my house and car just because I was trying to be helpful and reload for some stranger on the internet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I appreciate the concern, the problem is that you can't just buy 7.62x51mm NATO hunting ammo, it doesn't exist. And if I try to shoot commercial loaded .308 win out of this Mauser, it WILL blow my face off lol. That's why I wanted somebody to load them in the first place, so that they'd be NATO spec.
 

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Ahhh! I see the dilemma, you don't want 308, you want 7.62nato with hunting bullets.

I'm going to search a bit and see if I can find something.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Exactly! Maybe you can find something, that would be freaking awesome. So far all I've been able to find is FMJ which isn't legal to hunt with around here.

The whole reason I bought this gun was for a deer rifle. The guys at the store told me it was a .308 so that got me all excited, only for me to find out that it isn't actually a .308. I love the rifle though, it's really accurate and doesn't weigh much.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Hmm I wonder about the chamber pressures though. I'd like to see some load data on it to know if it falls into the NATO specs or below. I'd think that it would, but who knows, it may be lower velocity and whatnot at the same chamber pressure...

Anybody know anything about the chamber pressures in these?
 

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I have a thread going on the High Road right now about your issues. Got a response from RC about the pressures:
rcmodel said:
No. They won't tell you.

But if you compare a 125 going at 2660 FPS in a reloading manual with any powder charge, it is a starting load at around 30-30 pressure, or 30,000 - 40,000 PSI.

The Federal 170 grain load would likewise compare with 30-30 Winchester power.

rc
 

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Exactly! Maybe you can find something, that would be freaking awesome. So far all I've been able to find is FMJ which isn't legal to hunt with around here.

The whole reason I bought this gun was for a deer rifle. The guys at the store told me it was a .308 so that got me all excited, only for me to find out that it isn't actually a .308. I love the rifle though, it's really accurate and doesn't weigh much.
Maximum SAAMI pressures:
7.62X51 NATO 415 MPa (60,200 psi)

.308 Winchester 62,000 psi (430 MPa)

Either loaded close to these pressures would be extremely hot loads.

Most military surplus 7.62 is usually loaded hotter than standard .308 hunting ammo for use in machine guns.

Store bought factory loaded ammo is never loaded to maximum pressures unless the manufacturer specifically states that it is an extreme velocity or special loading.

Aside from all that. Since you can get FMJ NATO ammo, it is pretty easy to make an FMJ, JFN or JHP out of'em with the aid of a dremel.
 
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