Is Open Cary less safe than we originally thought?

Discussion in 'CCW & Open Carry' started by lklawson, Mar 1, 2016.

  1. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Seems that targeting OC for theft of their handgun might be becoming a trend. For years, during any OC vs CC argument, while personally advocating for CC over OC, I would as detractors of OC, "can you point out any actual incidents of the OC person being specifically targeted?" Back then, the answer was always, "no." But that is no longer true.


    Virginia man robbed of gun while open-carrying
    by Chad D. Baus - 7:00am Wednesday, February 10, 2016

    The Daily Press of Newport News, VA is reporting that city police are investigating after a man reported he was pushed to the ground and had his handgun stolen.

    From the article:

    Officers responded to a report of the robbery in the 6000 block of Jefferson Avenue just before 8 p.m. Jan. 29, according to police spokesman Harold Eley.

    The victim, a 37-year-old Hampton man, told police he was robbed as he walked across Jefferson Avenue to the lot at the Windsor House after visiting a friend at the Travelers Inn. He was wearing his handgun in a holster, open carry, on his hip, Eley said.

    The man said he was approached from behind by two men, and one of them demanded his gun. The other then grabbed the gun from the holster and pushed him to the ground. Both men fled on foot southbound toward the trailer parks, Eley said.

    The suspects have not been located, and police are asking for tips.

    This is not the first such incident that has made news. Last year, a Portland, OR man was robbed of his Walther P22 by a man in flip-flops. Similar incidents have occurred in Michigan and Wisconsin.​

    I read a lot of firearms-related news media reports every day, and have done so for over a decade now, and I can't think of a single incident in which a concealed carry licensee was taken by surprise and had their concealed gun taken away from them. I'm not saying it's never happened, but it stands to reason that a thug is much less likely to try and steal something from you when they don't know it's there.

    As these examples prove, openly-carried firearms may not be much of deterrent to today's street thugs - even ones wearing flip-flops. Instead, a gun worn so that others know it is there may be perceived as nothing more than an invitation to take it.

    I am glad open carry is legal in Ohio. I want it to remain legal in Ohio. That being said, I share law enforcement and TDI instructor Greg Ellifritz's conclusion that the perils of open carry are such that it just isn’t a very good idea most of the time.

    Chad D. Baus is the Buckeye Firearms Association Secretary, BFA PAC Vice Chairman, and an NRA-certified firearms instructor. He is the editor of, which received the Outdoor Writers of Ohio 2013 Supporting Member Award for Best Website.

    Related Articles:

    Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry - A Question of Tactics

    The Perils of Open Carry

    Peace favor your sword,

  2. I wouldn't open carry, unless I was out in the country-side working on land, etc... but in the city, no way. Surprise them. You don't want to the 2-3 bad guys who bust into the food court to see you with your gun on your side. They'll take you out, first....
  3. yeah, outside in the woods by my house. OC all day.
    Anywhere else CC

    I mean, the studies of how quickly and attacker can stab you before you can draw your gun is a similar example.

    If they are planning on attacking you, and you are un suspecting. Any physically fit person tackle you and yank that gun in a matter of seconds. Those seconds will leave you be wilder ed, and un-able to defend yourself.
  4. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    NE Utah
    But...the Tueller "study" was done with the gun guy facing AWAY from the knife guy.;)

    Mythbusters did it with a holstered condition 3 gun, that had to be racked, the knife guy had the knife out and ready, with both guys facing each other and aware. At 20 feet the gun won every time, any closer, the knife guy won.

    It's not as cut and dried as many think.


    (Moonzy...izzat you?):)
  5. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    "Won," in this case meaning, "delivered one shot anywhere on the body of the advancing knife-guy prior to contact." It doesn't mean "stopped the threat." It often didn't even mean "serious injury" never mind, "incapacitating at some point."

    Unless it's a CNS hit or a hit to a major structural element (such as the pelvis), he's likely still mobile and now about to crash into you. ...with a knife.

    I always tell my students "Dying ain't dead."

    The Tueller Drill wasn't even designed to show what is a "safe" distance or not, or that gun > knife at X distance and knife > gun at <X distance. It was an AWARENESS drill designed to get people to stop foolishly thinking that "I've got a gun so I'm safe from any attack because I'll just shoot 'em."

    Oh, and Tueller was like a century late. I can document a Bowie Knife fighter who said exactly the same thing WAAAY before Tueller did. Even used 20 feet as his boundary distance.

    Peace favor your sword,
  6. Now figure that into the percentage of OC without incident. I didn't bother with it because their is simply two problems, if the story is not muddied, and situational awareness.

    A person on another board who knows the area had reported that the area is a known Hooker and drug area. That people go there for one, or both purposes. The fact that he claimed to be meeting a friend was a good indicator that he was going to do something illegal.

    We don't know that his gun was taken while his pants were around his ankles.

    Whether concealed or open don't do stupid stuff, and don't go places you shouldn't. And pay attention to what you are doing, and your surroundings. Even if he had been carrying concealed he still would have become a victim. It happens to thousands of people who do not carry at all, and they all look the same as someone who conceals.

    Nothing to see here, move along.
  7. I never saw the mythbusters episode. I did see an old video done by some sheriff's department. In it even at 25 feet, the guy got stabbed even if he got shots off.
    usually the guy with the knife was so close by the shot he just dove on him stabbing.

    So even in that case, id rather be stabbed then shot, but its not exactly a win either.
  8. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    "...told police he was robbed as he walked across Jefferson Avenue..."

    So that would be "We don't know that his gun was taken AFTER his pants were around his ankles."

    Peace favor your sword,
  9. mn_doggie

    mn_doggie Member

    All we know is that he was open carrying.

    Any comments that he even had pants on is pure conjecture.... :D
  10. Like anybody would admit their wallet was lifted by a Hooker...

    OK, OK I forgot about Mole.
  11. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    NE Utah
    Back to the OP...I'm not sure what "we" thought, but SOME said it was safer, while SOME said it was making the OC person a target.

    Looks like SOME of us were right.:D
  12. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Yup. You're dead on. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
  13. Was the guy using a lanyard?

    I have one on one of my pistols. But only because the pistol is the same model as what the Finnish police at one time carried. When I bought the surplused Finnish police holster it can with a lanyard.

    IMO if one is going to open carry for self defense reasons, carry an AR, AK, etc and then carry it as if one was out hunting.

    Gun Stolen in Armed Robbery. Concealed Carry Fail?
    By Dean Weingarten on December 27, 2014

    “The victim was near Henry Clay and Coliseum around 9 p.m. when he was approached by two attackers who hit him with a gun,” reports. “They then put him face down on the ground, frisked him, and stole the victim’s concealed weapon.” It’s a rare but not unknown event: bad guys robbing a concealed carry weapons (CCW) permit holder of his or her defensive firearm. In this case, the vic’s inability to bring his gun to bear on the bad guys had a little something to do with the fact that he was pistol whipped in the head before he could draw. But what if the victim had been openly carrying his firearm . .

    Looks like the problem is SA, not the method of carry. For myself I could not care less how YOU carry. It is your business, as mine is mine. Not my place to play daddy to everybody that carries.
  15. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    So when are we going to admit that neither concealed carry not open carry is an answer to everything?
  16. I am so surprised that a liberal gets it. A weapon is a tool, no matter the carry. It is not worth a damn if the person has their head up their arse.
  17. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    I don't know. I like being able to OC everywhere I go. I carry the G20 at like 9:30 in a fobus holster with the retention set pretty tight. I never carry anything in my strong (left) hand, and keep my knife in my right front pocket so I can use my left to protect the gun should someone grab for it and still give me access to a weapon. Of course I'm a bit of a paranoid person, I keep my arms tight to my body when in a crowd and use my spidey senses when people are behind me. I try not to let people get behind me, but that's virtually impossible in public.

    All you can do is try to be ready but some things come so far out of left field, it's impossible to plan for everything.
  18. ArmyScout

    ArmyScout Supporting Member

    I read somewhere that the need to Open Carry is the result of a small penis syndrome. :rofl:

  19. I read that about people who push their agenda on others. Something having to do with a needle...