Yep leave it to the "whackjob" Glenn Beck to finally talk about this. I've been waiting, quite familiar with the plight of the indians on the rez in this state. Indian Health Services..Yes people start looking it up this is the govt running healthcare...horribly. Call Glenn what you want, but who else has covered this?
It's about time ...someone talked about govt healthcare in action ..the IHS
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Yeah, the IHS is a government agency running healthcare for a specific minority that this government has a significant history of screwing and ignoring.
Medicare is the government run health care that covers a good number of Americans. So are you gonna point out what a success Medicare is?
Medicaide is the government run health care that covers a good number of Americans. So are you gonna point out what a success Medicaide is?
Tricare is a government run health insurance program for military persons active retired and disabled. You gonna point out what a success Tricare is?
The FEHB (Federal Employees Health Benefits) is D*MN GOOD!!! You gonna point out what a success FEHB is?
The US government in my humble opinion does a pretty good job of taking care of people it gives a crap about.
Just honestly, these programs are all supported by taxes, and they are all single payer programs. People still pay co-pays and so on, so weighing all those against one program that anyone who knows anything about the US governments history with the native populations is going to agree is appalling and near criminal, is slight of hand. GB is pointing to something horrible, but refusing to acknowledge all these successful programs, why???
Cause he's getting paid to scare people over a public health system.
Now the Great Commonwealth of Kentucky where I chose to move back to when deciding to leave Florida (worst state ever). One of the great things about the Commonwealth of Kentucky, is that my childrens school supplies a full time nurse and medical clinic on school grounds that can dispense simple medication and medical examinations and it is all part of the "Commonwealth". The state health system covers all that.
That's technically socialist medicine. But we all love it. Ky is one of the "hillbilly" states as far as the rest of the country is concerned.
But I remember "the school nurse" for as long as I remember going to school. So why are the Hillbilly's in Ky OK with the idea of socialist medicine?
Cause noones calling it socialist. We call it common sense. It's the same practice we all apply of "watchin out for your neighbor" cause everybody may have hard times at some point. That's the point of a commonwealth. The idea itself is socialist, but it's worked just fine and dandy for us since 1792.
Virginia is another commonwealth and the wife tells me she had a school nurse and in school medicine in her home commonwealth as well.
D*mn, I never would have guessed Virginia and Kentucky as liberal strongholds!
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Yep I'd say they do. The problem is that I seriously doubt they will actually give a crap about anyone who doesn't represent a major voting power.
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That's a very realistic concern. But it's harder to mistreat the whole, than it is to mistreat the parts.
Not if you reduce the whole into a bunch of parts. Common tool of those that wish to rule, divide and conquer.
The only group they ever take care of is themselves. Which is why they shouldnt have any more power than is absolutely needed to keep the country functional. That does not include social engineering or entitlements for obvious reasons.
Any one thinking they will do a better job for any one than they have done for the Indian Nations is not only a fool but and evil fool.
If you want someone hired by the school board to look after your kids health, then don't complain when they get sick. I'm sure not impressed with any school board and the what they hire as teachers, so I sure wouldn't put much faith in a school nurse.
They call it free and that about all it's worth IMO!
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AHA!!!!!!!!!! I've CAUGHT YOU!!!!!
Liberal v Conservative, black v white, gay v straight, urban v rural !!! All tools for dividing Americans YES????
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I have no problems with it yet.
I pay top of the line for my insurance and with specialists and the allergy guy and the respiratory guy and the cancer guy and the bone guy and the sports medicine guy doesn't hurt me any, they take it outa my check before I even see it, almost painless that way, BUT....My kids still get sick.
So effectively, there is no good medical standard by your applied line up there.
It's not free! It's paid for. By everyone in the state. So that those whom need it the most, "kids", get it when they need it. It's the core idea behind a commonwealth.
Are you p*ssin on my beloved commonwealth ekim???? :devilsidesmile:
You don't have to put much faith in a school nurse. She runs on salary. And caring about kids. It's a good combo!
And compared to the schools in Florida, I'm happy with the teachers I've met here and that my kids have had so far. They are doing well and are right in the middle. Not too high, not too low. Best place for em.
Heres what I will point to... Medicare and Medicaid are a success? limits to treatments, going trillions of dollars over budget? This is a success ?? Well then I guess Universal healthcare will be a booming success.
TriCare? Isn't that now run by Aetna and UnitedHealth? And wasn't it Humanas before that....hmmm so you say it works very well and it is/has been run by the 3 biggest "evil" private insurance companies.
FEHB I admit to not knowing alot about but it must be damn good as you say because the private meetings make sure we don't move forward with this universal utopian healthcare plan until they are sure they can stay out of it. To whit:
(And yes this cats a Republican as I've said many times its a good ol boy network)
The initial inquiry from Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) on July 17 stated:
"As drafted, H.R. 3200 requires all individuals to have a government-determined minimum level of health insurance. To be in compliance, every individual must obtain coverage through enrollment in a 'qualified health benefits plan or other acceptable coverage,' or, if not enrolled in a 'qualified health benefits plan or other acceptable coverage,' through the Health Insurance Exchange. However, it is not clear from the legislation if FEHBP is a 'qualified health benefits plan,' or if federal employees and their dependants who are enrolled in FEHBP would be in compliance. Currently, over 8 million people are enrolled in FEHBP and any changes to the program or its operation by the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) could have serious costs and consequences for the federal government and federal employees. This legislation should not move forward until we know its effect on our federal employees."
Issa's letter continued, asking the committee chair for a hearing on the issue:
"The Oversight and Government Reform Committee is uniquely positioned to examine this legislation to get a broad view of how it will affect federal employees. For this reason, I request that you not waive committee jurisdiction of this important legislation and that you hold a hearing on H.R. 3200 and its effect on federal employees."
Do they tend to take care of who they care about? Probably but I've heard and I'm sure vets on here can chime in some horror stories about the VA healthcare. I don't know about you my friend but everything I've seen says they most emphatically do NOT care about joe citizen.
So I think the comparison to Indian Health Services is more accurate than you want to admit
You have serious issues.
All those divisions were caused by the social engineering programs of the socialist/progressive/left. Whens the last time you saw conservatives chase hate crime bills? Social engineer? Redistribute wealth? etc etc. Only thing you may have caught is a inkling of a clue of what we have been trying to get across to you.
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You just got a hot bag of crazy for every situation....Dontcha?
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Note the budget is and has been proven to be an issue when Medicare Medicaide and SSI trusts, are raided repeatedly year after year by other government agencies and congress itself. Left to it's own devices they can and have run at a surplus many times. As soon as they do, they get raided.
nobody said it wouldn't require oversight. But yes, it's a success.
Not really. They subcontract out customer service, and forms allocation collection and collation. Kinko's could be the subcontractor on that, and that's fine. Subcontracting to private business isn't an issue, and shouldn't be. Oversight, steering and budgeting should not be.
Plus the only contract this can run under is an administrative services contract which has a fixed cost fixed profit amount at the start of each contract term. It's self limiting.
Of course they don't. FEHB is better health care than anyone else in the world gets. Why would they wanna lose it and be stuck with the same health care us plebs get.
Every system has horror stories. No matter what there is no "perfect" system. So just drop that idea off the cart. I have my own horror stories about being told that a procedure to stop my sons cancer when he was 4 was "too new" to be worth the cost.
Everybody...has horror stories because no system is without flaw.
And I will stake a goodly amount that there are charts and graphs and numbers showing that Medicare, Medicaide and Tricare are more efficient considering the scope of care, than are the top three private insurance companies in the US.
Because the government agencies don't have to shuck out a million dollar bonus every time a claims agent denies 5 million dollars worth of care in a year.
Yeah, they get bonuses for denying claims because that is money the company doesn't have to spend on patients.
Medicare denies claims when there is no proof that a procedure is needed. No precedent that a specific medication will help treat X disease.
Come on. Use common sense. That's all I'm asking. A private company has factual, gross, money as an incentive to deny care. The employees who deny the care, get more money the more claims they deny. That's freakin horrible!
Imagine if the money being spent to stop universal health care, was just dropped into an account FOR universal health care.
How much would that start the ball rolling???
2 billion dollars. Sounds like alot huh??? Crazy number??? Can't possibly be 2 billion.
That's how much is estimated to be spent by insurance companies and doctors groups to STOP universal health care.
Cause they HAVE IT! They didn't take out a loan! lol. This is cash on hand baby. Of course it's just logical. If I could spend 2 billion, to make sure I get to keep raking in 2.2 TRILLION, and that's the bills that actually got paid for 2007. Counting unpaid bills it would have been 3.8 trillion.
That's what the healthcare industry took in for 2007 2.2 Trillion. .4 trillion went to pay humans. 1.3 trillion went to insurance companies as profit.
That's just disgusting. just disgusting. I'm just sayin.
Did you have any massive medical bills in 2007??? Me either. If the insurance company I paid all year, didn't have to pay out past my deductible on me, should I get some of that money back? Like most of it? If they pulled in 1.3 Trillion, shouldn't I be able to get my measly $3000.00 back? I sure could use it.
You can talk about "progressives" till your blue in the face. Money talks. 1.3 trillion in profits talks louder than just about anyone.
Thank god it's all privately held. I'd hate to think how the government would mismanage it. :devilsidesmile:
I don't. I think it's as comparable as Imminent Domain is to putting Natives on Reservations. They were gonna get screwed no matter what.
Enjoy your excellent tricare when this monstrosity passes i bet dollars to donuts you won't have it anymore. if you think the govt can run things so well enjoy it. I don't trying to convince each other otherwise is futile. its funny in the same post you say things are run so good but the govt steals money from surpluses to run other things...something those evil money makers can't do they can't run their businesses endlessly on my tax dollars even running in negative numbers for years..or hell just print more money or borrow from the chinese..they actually have to make that evil profit. One basic question if this is such a nightmare why don't they just open al 50 states to any insurance provider? That would increase competition and lower prices practically overnight. I just disagree with your take that govt runs businesses well and i always will. Amtrak. Post Office. IHS. GM. PBS. NPR. Soon to come Uni Healthcare. Bleh.
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Think they can handle health care?
Just look at how much they underestimated cash for clunkers.
We'll be broke, beyond repair, in a month.
Just look at how much they underestimated cash for clunkers.
We'll be broke, beyond repair, in a month.
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yeah, like veterans....My relatives who have been taken care of by the VA have been screwed heartily. I have never met a veteran who has been happy with the VA.
On the other hand, I personally experienced medicaid and that was better than the private insurer i have now.
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45, there is no point where I am saying, Just run with it.
I think that Universal Healthcare is a good idea. We are at a point where the idea is surpassed by our ability. If we really wanted to, we could easily have the best Health system in the world, run like Medicare, or Tricare, or FEHB.
Technically with FEHB, we do have the greatest socialist health system in the world. FEHB is totally tax payer funded. It runs like a private health insurance provider, but it does not have the requirement that it constantly increase it's profit margins to the absolute maximum, to the exclusion of patient care.
I have 3 points which I feel are above reproach. Please feel free to challenge them on the terms they are presented.
#1. Many industrial nations have universal state managed health care. And the populations are healthy and alive and doing fine. You can't deny it. It's a fact. England alone has had this system in place since the end of WWII.
The important part of this point is that if we Americans decide to create universal health care, we do not have to directly and completely copy the other nations. We don't have to become Germany and France and Canada in order to implement a good idea.
That is what the rhetoric, fear mongering, PAID spokespeople keep repeating just so they keep milking the population of this country.
#2. Implementation of a Universal Health care system that is government operated does not go against any American Values. It actually is a validation of our core American Values, and keeping with the long standing traditions that we have established since the early 1800's.
We already have it, intermixed with the capitalist system. It's proven no more socialist YET, than any of the other absoultely socialist ideals we still use with our education system, our military, our police and fire departments, or our national guard or the Government Owned Flood Insurance. We already have several insurance systems that are directly owned and operated by the US Government.
#3. IF there were to be a Universal Health care system in America, owned and operated by the American people through an administrative arm of the government. It would not end private sector insurance. All of the terrible socialist countries who have universal health care also have working in concert a thriving but smaller scale private medical industry. That's because some people will always want more. They will want "better" because better is more expensive and they like proving they can pay for more expensive.
Just think of the Gun Snobs. The reality is that the same people who would refuse to take a free Hi Point because it isn't expensive enough, are the same kind of people who would refuse to use Universal Health care. Cause it's the crap socialist medicine that people use when they can't afford "real" medicine.
That is my argument. Always has been, probably always will be.
It's a better idea. We can do it. And it can't destroy our American way of life.
If anyone wants to make an actual argument as to how a Universal Health Care plan destroys the American way of life. Please do.
I'd love to hear an opinion that doesn't start with, and consist ONLY of "It's Socialism". Cause it's a dead and useless bit of fear mongering rhetoric. Utterly baseless. This country has socialism already and has had it for more than a hundred years, and we are still going strong.
As soon as you pay a tax to the government and the government does ANYTHING with that money that potentially benefits ALL the people who live in and visit that country, you have socialism in action.
I openly invite anyone to make a point by point argument against it without using the words, Socialism, Bolshevism, Fabianism, Leninism, Maoism, Marxism, collective ownership, collectivism, communism, state owner ship or any other media buzzword that is 90% insult, 5% ideaology, 5% completely outdated McCarthyism.
Explain how it WILL destroy the American way of life....Noone has even tried to do it.
Bring the counterpoints. Not the commercials or the taglines repeated endlessly by the Tv and Radio guys you listen to. I'm all ears. ^-^
I think that Universal Healthcare is a good idea. We are at a point where the idea is surpassed by our ability. If we really wanted to, we could easily have the best Health system in the world, run like Medicare, or Tricare, or FEHB.
Technically with FEHB, we do have the greatest socialist health system in the world. FEHB is totally tax payer funded. It runs like a private health insurance provider, but it does not have the requirement that it constantly increase it's profit margins to the absolute maximum, to the exclusion of patient care.
I have 3 points which I feel are above reproach. Please feel free to challenge them on the terms they are presented.
#1. Many industrial nations have universal state managed health care. And the populations are healthy and alive and doing fine. You can't deny it. It's a fact. England alone has had this system in place since the end of WWII.
The important part of this point is that if we Americans decide to create universal health care, we do not have to directly and completely copy the other nations. We don't have to become Germany and France and Canada in order to implement a good idea.
That is what the rhetoric, fear mongering, PAID spokespeople keep repeating just so they keep milking the population of this country.
#2. Implementation of a Universal Health care system that is government operated does not go against any American Values. It actually is a validation of our core American Values, and keeping with the long standing traditions that we have established since the early 1800's.
We already have it, intermixed with the capitalist system. It's proven no more socialist YET, than any of the other absoultely socialist ideals we still use with our education system, our military, our police and fire departments, or our national guard or the Government Owned Flood Insurance. We already have several insurance systems that are directly owned and operated by the US Government.
#3. IF there were to be a Universal Health care system in America, owned and operated by the American people through an administrative arm of the government. It would not end private sector insurance. All of the terrible socialist countries who have universal health care also have working in concert a thriving but smaller scale private medical industry. That's because some people will always want more. They will want "better" because better is more expensive and they like proving they can pay for more expensive.
Just think of the Gun Snobs. The reality is that the same people who would refuse to take a free Hi Point because it isn't expensive enough, are the same kind of people who would refuse to use Universal Health care. Cause it's the crap socialist medicine that people use when they can't afford "real" medicine.
That is my argument. Always has been, probably always will be.
It's a better idea. We can do it. And it can't destroy our American way of life.
If anyone wants to make an actual argument as to how a Universal Health Care plan destroys the American way of life. Please do.
I'd love to hear an opinion that doesn't start with, and consist ONLY of "It's Socialism". Cause it's a dead and useless bit of fear mongering rhetoric. Utterly baseless. This country has socialism already and has had it for more than a hundred years, and we are still going strong.
As soon as you pay a tax to the government and the government does ANYTHING with that money that potentially benefits ALL the people who live in and visit that country, you have socialism in action.
I openly invite anyone to make a point by point argument against it without using the words, Socialism, Bolshevism, Fabianism, Leninism, Maoism, Marxism, collective ownership, collectivism, communism, state owner ship or any other media buzzword that is 90% insult, 5% ideaology, 5% completely outdated McCarthyism.
Explain how it WILL destroy the American way of life....Noone has even tried to do it.
Bring the counterpoints. Not the commercials or the taglines repeated endlessly by the Tv and Radio guys you listen to. I'm all ears. ^-^
I disagree. Points and counterpoints are a complete waste of time. You think taxpayer healthcare is good I don't. you sight nations with a fraction of our population apples to oranges. You believe its good I believe its bad. Nuff said.
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I'm disapointed, though not surprised by your response. But if you wanna leave it alone, I don't have any rubber horse kicking boots anyway.
Actually it kinda sucks, it's good for the most part but if you go to the emergency room for something not on their list, you will get charged for the bill. There is a lot of stuff not on their list. If you aren't spraying blood everywhere they won't cover it, basically.
Ok I'll admit that was disappointing, it just seems both our minds are made up. Example: I tell you Medicare/medicaid is going bankrupt, you say its great.
Here's 2 of my other threads on healthcare notice I only use the term socialist once as a descriptive of what Obama is and what I am not.
http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/Forum/index.php/topic,20509.msg222361.html#msg222361
http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/Forum/index.php/topic,19645.msg211160.html#msg211160
The english system is the 3rd largest employer in the WORLD its so entrenched its almost impossible to get rid of and many of them want to. At the same time you say we don't have to become France Canada etc Canada is making an active move to get away from its plan because it's NOT working. Go back and look up the rhetoric when they first implemented theirs.."It's not going to get rid of the private insurance" yet it did just that because they were driven out of business. BTW does that rhetoric sound familiar?
Oh about your Govt Run flood insurance?
I am by no means an expert on this lin=ving no where near floods as I personally hate water. But a quick check with that very right wing Washington Post
(just so you cdon't think I'm a Beckhead) yields this:"The National Flood Insurance Program was established by Congress in 1968 to cover property owners who build in flood-prone areas, which are considered too great a risk by private insurers. It followed years of devastating floods and political debate over whether the government should step in to offer insurance.
Nearly from its inception, the program has struggled to pay all its claims. It collects $2 billion in annual premiums but has no reserves, heavily subsidizes some of its riskiest customers and relies on the Treasury to bail it out when losses exceed income. Losses this year from Katrina and Hurricane Rita alone could top $10 billion, experts say, forcing the program to borrow billions from taxpayers with no guarantee of repayment."
Now apply the above to the healthcare reform thats being talked about and you see my concern.
You're point about it not ending private insurers see my first paragraph above, all your points are reproachable but you have to be willing to accept the reproach. Canadas thriving private providers for example reside mostly just south of their borders. You can believe that or not but like many things you attach this to I'll say "Its a fact"
So thats my argument note the exclusion of terms of ism and the inclusion of things I think support my side, now really it's late for real Nuff said.
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