Just a few thoughts

Discussion in 'Vintage Topic Archive (Sept - 2009)' started by doktor, Mar 12, 2008.

  1. doktor

    doktor Guest

    I have been reviewing a video I received from the NRA regarding self-defense. I got to thinking, a dangerous thing for me!!! I have always been trained in the military, and almost every other contact that I've had regarding shooting in a self-defense/defense of others situation, or just target practice, says that you are best to get the tightest group you possibly can get. I have always trained that way, and I am pretty sure that almost everyone else has trained that way.
    I would like to bring a few thoughts to bear that may cause you to perhaps rethink that ingrained thought. If there are others that are more experienced in this area, I would be willing to be influenced otherwise.
    That said, I have worked in emergency rooms on three continents, and have seen the results of center of mass shots, which everyone will pretty much acknowledge is where you should focus placing your rounds. The thoughts that I would like to bring out is based on seeing the amount of damage done through center of mass. I am DEFINITELY not advocating changing focusing on COM, merely changing the thoughts regarding how to hit that COM. Hits that pretty much follow one "directly" after the next, are doing damage to sort of the same tissue that the one previously did. what I propose, and this is where I suggest a slight change in thought process. I would propose that rather than trying to get each round to follow the next, perhaps, slightly re-orient your sight picture, to facilitate doing more tissue damage, I am, of course, proposing this, based on the fact that you have decided, at that particular point in time, that deadly force is the ONLY option, ie them or you/your family or the BG.
    I have seen a patient take a full clip 8 rounds, in the area just below the ribs, and there was extensive internal tissue damage, but not immediately lethal. Had the shooter modified his point of aim within his center of mass, three rounds could have been more effectively placed left of center, taking out one lung, one right of center, taking out the other lung, and one center of his chest to stop the BG's heartbeat.
    If there had been a second BG getting a second magazine will take longer than still having 4-5 rounds in the first in the first mag.

    Let the discussion begin!!!

  2. Thankfully never been in a situation where I had to do shoot at someone, but whenever I practice firing multiple rounds at short distances they do tend to drift around a little bit from side to side and up and down. So the way I figure it if you aim at center of mass and pull the trigger multiple times the bullets would hit various regions. Never had any professional training just based on my limited knowledge.

  3. its a good line of thought doc, and one that I can't help but agree with. Now for another bit of insight on how to accomplish this. Start your sight picture low, say the upper half of the belly. Make your follow up shots in more rapid succession than you normally would, even loosen your grip a tad if you like. Let the recoil raise the impacts up the torso. Just remember, practice, practice, practice until you know it by heart. I have found that when shooting my double action S&W 686 with mild .38's that I can easily make my first 3 shots be a 3" group at engagement ranges and have my next three shots trail DOWN the target. However in a quick life/death scenario I wouldn't be doing it that way, I would let them trail up.
  4. 99/100

    99/100 Member

    With the availability of body armor and drugs (bullet? I was shot?) ideally you'd shoot for the pelvis. Most BA stops about the navel and I defy a hopped up guy to run with a ruined hip socket, or with his balls a bloody mess for that matter. That said we've been teaching center of mass for so long I would have to consciously force my point of aim somewhere else.
  5. While I think you make a good point 99/100, I find it hard to imagine that your typical street trash is walking around with both body armor and hopped up on the kind of drugs that would help them in this situaiton. I could be wrong of course, and somebody is more than welcome to correct me, as I am far from an expert :)
  6. neothespian

    neothespian Member

    But in the real world, body armour is difficult for criminals to obtain at best and drugs are problematic and unpredictable. I agree in the shot placement towards critical joints, but ForF psycology kicks in when you're talking about the average joe being thrust into a situation such as a shooting conflict. When under the gun, all the sudden, outside a club or at a petrol station, can any of us get that dead on accuracy we all practice at the range? No. The best we can do is condition and understand that when it comes down to it, our accuracy will decrease without premeditation. It's not a sign of bad conditioning or lack of skill, but a human fact.

    This applies to the person being shot as well. Add in drugs, and then it gets confusing. Many insist that those on drugs won't feel the shot, therefore bigger and more shots are better. Untrue. Each person has a different physiology and react differently depending on factors such as age, health, other chemicals ingested and the like. While one person may be able to punch a hole in a cinder block wall while on PCP, the other person may be extremely paranoid and suffer from cardiac arrest the minute he's shoved out of an air conditioned car. Add in the stress of a bullet wound, and all bets are off.

    As for body armour: Criminals don't pay good money for gear. They steal it or get it for cheap from a "hookup". And when you do find a "used" vest, 50% of the time the shelf life has expired and the vest is already compromised from sitting on a shelf. So, the odds of the average thug or gansta g on the street wearing this stuff is minute at best. You'll find more cab drivers and convience store clerks with better gear than these guys.
  7. good points 99/100 but I agree that relatively few bg's have access to body armor.

    I do know of a local LEO who double tapped a perf in the chest(coming at him w/ a knife). The guy looked down then back up and continued his charge. He aimed for the head and go an insta-kill severing the nerves to the brain that saved his own life. The guy was hopped up on some drug(s) and they said shots anywhere else would not have phased him.
  8. doktor

    doktor Guest

    There has been some comments, that on the surface, make a lot of sense, don't remember who it was that suggested letting his rounds "climb" seemingly out of positive control of your weapon, that may work in some circumstances, I would propose a different scenario. As you are practicing your SD scenario, use the absolute most possible control you are capable of performing, practice so that your weight, as best you can, is forward over your knees, we all like to prove how macho we are by standing straight up and letting the bullets fly. We are all aware, from our early days, about our "fight or flight" responses. Our sight becomes focused on the danger ahead, we will instinctively bring our hands to bear to block any frontal or partially lateral attack, the crouch allows us the ability to move forward, backward, or laterally and any combination of the above. Fine motor skills are reduced to permit the fight/flight action with our major muscle groups, if you can remember a time that you were scared to death as a kid, all of these things were pretty much present.
    I propose that we can make those "natural" responses become our advantage. Let me break it down, see if it works for you:
    First you are crouched to be able move either in an aggressive mode, or in a flight.
    Use that "natural" response as a platform to keep your weapon, at the ready, close to your body, close, to allow us the ability engage our enemy at any angle that he might present himself, and with the elbows outside of our ribs, to prevent either our initial aggressor, or worse case scenario his accomplice from being able to wrest your weapon away, they must reach farther around with elbows outside, giving us just that much better chance to retain it.
    The sight will be the our next approach.
    We will always be fixated on the immediate frontal area, with our line of sight forward, and narrowed to give us better acuity of the situation.
    Putting this to work, let's bring our weapon to bear immediately, by bringing our weapon very quickly from our protected area in the front of our chest, to our restricted line of sight, and directly to our front line of sight with our full double grip fully extended ready to be engaged consistently, every, repeat, every time you engage any target where you are trying to train muscles, to get a consistent point of aim. These are not my words only, most full time self-defense schools, from what I have been able. The more often that you repeat the movements, the more likely you are going to have the movements become second nature, leaning forward gives your field of view a little advantage, as you can sweep side to side and still have your weapon right next to your chest, away from the guy that wants to deprive you of it.
    There has been some controversy as to how best to have your defensive weapon ready, I won't go too much into that, except to say, the best way is the way you will respond to it in a full blown need to use it, for myself, I keep it mag full, safety off, pipe empty, for my purposes, I know that if a BG were to get one of my weapons he usually assumes it to be chambered, giving a split-second advantage for me.
    The crouch gives you the ability to avoid any advances the BG may try to make, forward, backwards, left, right, higher, or even hitting the floor should a foreign body come your way.

    And definitely there is a need to know exactly where each and every round goes. One of my weapons for carry is a 5 round S & W 38 special. I do carry extra speed-loaders, and try as I might I have not been able to squeeze the 6th or 7th round out of that revolver. I practice with it so that I try to get 2 "good" fully controlled rounds, and then bring myself back into my good fight/flight crouched stance, 2 fully controlled well placed on either side of my roughly 14 inch center of mass, is more likely to bring them down, if I hit lung, breathing automatically decreases, usually to the point that the threat becomes controllable, if I take out the pulmonary artery by accident, then the call to EMS becomes a totally non-issue.
    I have always been a saver of lives, however, I have also been in other situations where other choices might have been made, Thank God, I have never taken another's life. I have had to place patients into situations that would facilitate them not hurting me or anyone that I was associated with.
    I could, under the wrong circumstances eliminate another life, would I grieve for them? Probably, but in the same situation I could do the same thing, I practice that way, so I don't have to think myself out of a dangerous situation, by being poorly prepared.
    There is a quotation that I have often heard, and I honestly do not know the source that goes "Forewarned is forearmed."

    Just a few more thoughts????????????????????

  9. What I've heard of in shootings is that even trained personell such as LEO's often miss their mark numerous times and at close range.
    If trained LEO's have this kind of accuracy then the best I can hope for is to at least hit the target at least once, maybe twice, If I were "lucky" enough to hit the BG at all.

    Let's here from some LEO's or others actually involved in shootings.
  10. Thayldt21

    Thayldt21 Senior Member Member

    8 shots iin one spot on a human body, I have to guess the victom was tied down and the BG was at point blank range and there was a hole straight threw the body,

    People are not stationary and when hit move, Infact even lurch as to jump out of the way, Others yes may stay in place but they will move, an to have such brilliant skill to place 8 rounds i say wow,

    most often in combat the rounds that make the hit are spread threw the body, ie one hit the chest the other hit the stomack and another in the leg.

    people move, shooters do not have that lovely stationary target that [poses no threat.

    i would say train as always there is aa reason.

    it is hard enough to make the shot yet alone be superninjapimpkillernightopsman.

    it is by all means not as easy as the movies, and to think one is so great to be able to remain calm enough to aim at the stomach then the chest or what ever is foolish,.

    there is a reason we train com and not com then a little to the left.

    but hey i am just a guy with a key board
  11. 69burbon

    69burbon Well-Known Member

    Great to have insight on this from a medical professional. Thanks Doc.

    You make a great point. From some of the LEO's I've talked to, they are still taught to go for center mass. There is a good chance to stop the BG with a couple shots at least. We all have seen the videos of the BG that seems to be able to absorb whatever they are hit with.

    If I am ever pressed into that situation I would go for center mass just because it is the largest target. If the BG is still coming at me then I would probably go for the head. Disconnect the power and the lights go out.

    That being said I got to take a look at one of the Taurus Judge 45LC/410 last weekend. There is a stopper. 5 chambers. Mix em up. One long colt for the first (warning) shot and Buckshot in the second. The other three load up with no. 4 shot.
  12. doktor

    doktor Guest

    The bad guy was high on a street drug called "angel-dust", and was fully intent on taking out the MP (that happened to be an expert marksman) that was shooting him, I can only vouch for the locations of the holes, that "I personally counted" in his lower chest all within a 2 1/2 inch circle. I am not claiming that I am a "superninjapimpkillernightopsman."
    What my intent was to place thoughts into our methods of training to develop the abilities to consistently and unconsciously assume a stance and thought pattern that will utilize the "autonomic" system that our bodies will go into automatically,
    because we are not professionally engaged in the art and science of killing people,
    as my fellow soldiers are learning to do.
    It would appear that name calling is a much easier stance to assume, than a crouch with much better control.
    I was simply trying to bring a somewhat different thought process to the table, based on actual observations of actual bad guys, that didn't make it through to jail. If you have something useful to say, or some other contradictory evidence than what I have brought to the forum, by all means, I will yield.
    That withstanding, I have earned, at least, the respect of not being called a liar. I am just an old soldier that gave you the "right" to be "a guy with a keyboard." I had taken an oath to defend our "Constitution", that is the document that gives us the right to free speech, but that free speech stops at the point where another person's rights are violated.
    If you can read, Thank a Teacher, If you are reading this in English thank the American fighting man, or woman.

  13. Thayldt21

    Thayldt21 Senior Member Member


    I would firtst like to apoligize if It sounded like I was talking to you personaly or even calling you a liar. Completly not the intent.

    My responce was to help people understand that we train the way we do for a reason.
    And that Thinking one can target a left lung and then the right lung would be foolish.

    Not all BG are pump up and not all Shooters are experts that get the raging atacker that does not stray of course of attack.

    The name calling was meant as a Way to lighten it up a bit and give a chuckle, Thus its childish sounding made up word.

    As for Myself,

    Well I am still young enough, And all in one peice, And yes My hearing is fine. Even after multiple IED's and small arms fire exchange, To include the daily mortor and rocket attacks from the second deployment.

    Believe it I have spilt the same blood in the same mudd, And sadly to say I have seen fellow soldiers fall in the sand or in a doorway due to there thinking they can hit any target they choose.

    And so I say there is a reason we train the way we do. The way we have for generations.
    Science improves our capabilities but the Boot on the ground can only servive if the mind is well trained and never second guessing themsleves.

    Or Overly analysing the situation. Time is key and reaction is life or death. CENTER of MASS or chances are you will miss.

    AND if I may I believe I earned MY right to be the guy with a key board.

    And trust me, I do thank myself and my wife, As she is Currently on her second tour thankfully due back sometime next month, to see her 7 month old son.

    So yeah, I'm just a guy with a key board. Oh and no its not the same key board that I took the pic of my son Minutes after he was born in Irwin Army hospital and posted it on the old site, I think I even reposted it here once before.

    So just to clear it up, My last post was only to keep peolpe from making foolish decisions, That is all.
  14. doktor

    doktor Guest


    Apology very much accepted

    Now I need to do a pedaloralectomy (foot in mouth extraction)

    Ft. Riley was my last duty station, out of Korea, in'88.
    I don't know how they are training soldiers now, are they trying to do "Audie Murphy" by adjusting point of aim? if that is how the military is training now then we need to get back to basics. We were always taught center of mass, if the soldiers that are trying pulling their focus from COM to do different things then, unless under orders otherwise, they are violating every possible tenet of self-protection that they should have started learning from the very first day in BCT.
    I wasn't thinking on changing the focus of COM, it has been saving American soldiers for hundreds of years, what my post was aimed (pun unintended) at was to STILL repeat STILL stay within the COM, just give a secondary thought to creating more tissue damage.
    Those IED's that you mentioned, are designed to emit shrapnel, which increases tissue damage to their "perceived" enemy. My thoughts were to do that, however, completely within the COM target area.
    On myself, for an example, my COM will be about 14 inches across, and maybe 9-10 inches, and sideways, maybe 9-10 inches by that same 9-10 inches height , for an average home invasion type of situation the shooting distance would probably be less than 10 feet with cover, and in an unprotected area where you are perhaps 6-8, or maybe 9 feet, of course, each individual home situation will vary and only you will be able to make those types of judgments. In my house that would put my COM approximately 1/10th of that distance, that would sort of allow myself about 3-5 degrees, although I am not any where a forensics expert, but about 3-5 degrees of "variance" to either move out of, or focus a second COM, or third, etc, any how you get the picture.........
    I can, under "normal" circumstances, hit the center of a 6 inch plate in a "combat" stance with all 8 of my .45 acp through my RIA 1911 at about 8-10 yards. I try to train my "instinctive" shooting more as I would want to use it. Can I use that same technique, I hope so, and as in BCT and AIT, techniques become habits, and habits can become "instincts" by developing, and cultivating them.

    By the by, congrats on your new son, I had the somewhat unique experience of delivering my second child, I think that was really COOOOOL!!!

    My prayers go to your wife's safe return.

  15. Hey Doc, Thanks to YOU for serving, and most probably saving American and Allied forces lives in the process. Hats off to you buddy!
  16. blkhwkfxr

    blkhwkfxr Guest

    Getting into this thread a bit late but wanted to throw my two cents in on the subject. I am an ex-infantry gone aviation crew chief, now completely out of service vet. In my military career I felt comfortable and confident in my training and retention of information given during training. I believed that the only way to shoot was COM everytime and as close of a pattern as possible.
    Now that I have been a full blown civilian for several years and have been to several schools, classes and semiars, I have personally taken on the point and shoot technique for my SD shooting style.
    Dont get me wrong fellas, its great to get out there and practice your marksmanship skills on a 12" round target and get 1" or smaller groups or plink cans from 200 yds with your 22, but for HD or SD situations you still should practice your rapid fire, point and shoot techniques. This is still a COM technique but without using your normal sight pictures. Keep in mind that the great majority of your selfdefence/ home defence situations will happen inside 21 feet and by the time your mind registers " BAD GUY IN MY HOUSE " and " NO FRIENDLIES BEHIND BAD GUY, CLEAR BACK PICTURE ", your finger needs to be pulling that trigger rapidly until the threat is disabled or dead then move onto the next threat.
    Pointing the fire arm as though it is an extention of your body, much like a finger, will insure multiple impacts on taget in a great enough dispersment to do maximum tissue and organ damage. Practice and only practice will bring greater accuracy in this technique. It is diffrent from weapon to weapon so practice it with all your weapons.

    Just my 2 cents on the subject.