LA county Sheriff ND problem clearly the gun not the training.

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by lsi1, Jun 15, 2015.

  1. lsi1

    lsi1 Member

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    http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-sheriff-guns-20150614-story.html#page=1


    So the guy from bearing Arms trashed the Glock and the M&P. You xd fans are probably next he'll finish up with a article about how the 1911 is clearly the best choice for our modern police officers to carry.

    We can't train these deputies to keep their fingers off the triggers what makes us think for a minute that they can remember more safety features? Is it possible we are getting more NDs now simply because officers used to forget to disengage the safety?
     
  2. Officers on most departments are being trained to keep their finger off the trigger. But when under stress things happen with the body without some people realizing it. Heart rate speeds up, muscles tense, breathing becomes more rapid, and the hands clench in fists preparing to fight. IMO the latter is where the problem lies.
     

  3. lsi1

    lsi1 Member

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    stress responses still happen with or without an external safety.

    is the beretta with its initial 12-14lb trigger pull less dangerous under those conditions? or is the less accurate fire possibly more dangerous to civilians or bystanders in those same stressful situations.

    When we have officers in the article directly quoted as saying their shooting accuracy and abilities have improved do we then not take some extra time and money to enforce good trigger discipline?
     
  4. Accidents/ND happen with almost all gun designs, but some appear more prone to it. The fingers can exert over 25 pounds of pressure, probably much more under stress. Often people who are shot, punched, or other do not feel because their body is pumping adrenaline. IMO on semi autos light switch triggers can contribute to ND's. SA revolvers do not have this problem unless the person cocks the gun first. And this has happened in the past, one should not cock on the draw, IMO.

    While the safety can be a danger, if the person does not take it off when they need to fire, it is not going to be likely flicked off by clenching reflex. Unless officers are trained to flip off the safety on draw, which I do not do, and do not think it is bright.

    If ND's become a huge problem then some refocus might need to be made as to keeping a gun holstered until a decision has been made to fire. It is not that big a problem yet, IMO.

    Maybe a semi auto needs to be designed that requires SA cocking the hammer every time. I do not hear of many ND's with single action revolvers.

    BTW overall police officers have a poor accuracy compared to civilians, even with the best equipment and some cases light switch triggers. OTH DA service revolvers were known for their accuracy, even with long, stiffer trigger pull. 12 to 14 pounds was standard on most service revolvers, 6 to 8 was the exception. Today people whine about 6 pounds.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2015
  5. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    We used to know about and train for the Moro Reflex. Heck the "convulsive grip" was part-n-parcel of the Fairbairn-Sykes/Applegate handgun system.

    When did we forget about it?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  6. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

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    An external safety is a good feature to have on a weapon with a light, single-action trigger, such as a rifle or a 1911, but it is not necessary for a DAO weapon. Keeping the trigger finger indexed is something that can be practiced so that stress won't cause an ND.

    People run USPSA and IDPA matches with Glocks and M&Ps without NDs all the time, and very rarely do NDs happen. If you can avoid an ND while running, weaving and ducking under visual barriers, then you should be able to avoid having an ND while clearing a room or covering something/someone.
     
  7. Matches are not life, and death.
     
  8. lsi1

    lsi1 Member

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    neither is unholstering your firearm after your shift is over but NDs happen there too.
     
  9. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    The one ND I have personal experience with that caused human damage was a 1911, a K9 MP was at the clearing barrel, his human partner cleared his first, and as he did, this guy with the dog lead and 1911 in the same hand got jerked by the dog, and shot the other guy in the thigh. It so happens, a .45 at close range can, and did, break the femur, the only medic on base was in my squad, so I got to go observe. It was ugly..:rolleyes:

    My SIL managed to shoot out both the windshield and rear window on his ford pickup. He thought the Walther P22 was empty, as it clicked. He racked the slide, dropped the mag, (you see where this went wrong, right?) and pulled the trigger with the gun pointing 180 degrees from down range. Scared the crap out of everyone there, which was just family. Cost him nearly $450, cheap considering the alternatives.

    He's extremely careful, now.:cool:
     
  10. Kiln

    Kiln Member

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    Moral of this story:

    Never trust man's best friend to understand the importance of sitting still when clearing your sidearm.
     
  11. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Oh no...this was the Army. We KNOW the dog is highly motivated, and safety is important, so SOP has been established in which the dog lead and a pistol are NEVER, EVER, in the same hand, and that SOP is trained, and trained hard.

    The moral of the story is, don't break SOP. The corporal broke SOP, which is to be followed, so the corporal was reduced to PFC, and got an article 15 in his record with reduced pay and extra duty for two months, plus being taken out of K9 status, and put back in the towers, which was 7 hours of non-stop boredom.
     

  12. Uh, the Walther P22 can not fire without the magazine inserted. Unless, the mag disconnect was intentionally removed...
     
  13. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

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    That magazine disconnect is very easy to remove, and that is probably what happened.
     
  14. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

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    Life and death situations cause fight-or-flight responses, and a match also raises adrenaline after running through the tables--especially if the match is a bigger one, with broader ramifications for one's standing.

    Repeated engagement in matches cultivates muscle memory that keeps the trigger finger properly indexed when adrenaline rushes occur. The same kind of muscle memory should apply in life-or-death situations.

    I had some pretty tame deployments, overall, but in the few tense and potentially deadly situations that I encountered, neither I nor anyone else had NDs. We kept our booger hooks out of the trigger guards.

    I'm not sure if you've ever been near the epicenter of a "death blossom", but having a bunch of AKs going off all around you because your counterparts have no discipline can certainly up the adrenaline.

    The sensation had the same effect on my weapon handling that the adrenaline from matches had, which was very little. And that was because of muscle memory.
     
  15. 85_GT_Kid

    85_GT_Kid Member

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    I'm 24 and had no training in handling firearms as no-one in my family was into guns and yet I knew right away "Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire". Not a hard concept to follow right?
     
  16. moona11

    moona11 King of you Monkeys Lifetime Supporter

    Its not but it happens time time and again. At one point we all do it. most just get lucky when they do.
     
  17. Rerun

    Rerun Member

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    Until you have someone else point a firearm AT YOU in a decision making instance of 'shoot don't shoot', you'll understand the difference between matches and 'life and death' scenarios...

    eldar
     
  18. moona11

    moona11 King of you Monkeys Lifetime Supporter

    I believe he has. Think am I correct.
     
  19. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

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    I guess you missed the part in there about me being in that situation, didn't you? The death blossom doesn't usually happen unless someone has been shooting at you.

    Read the whole post before you comment.
     
  20. Rerun

    Rerun Member

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    I did read the whole thing - the 'death blossom' thingie made me think you were talking about the 'Last Starfighter' for some reason.

    Use references that have better links to what is being talked about.

    eldar