Magazine trial and error

Discussion in 'General Hi-Point Discussion' started by Jerseydollar, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. Jerseydollar

    Jerseydollar Member

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    Ok so things i have tried are bending the springs, still ended up with ftf. I then moved onto replacing springs with glock springs for 20 bucks i was able to get 10 springs and in the c9 they work great. I even took half a coil out. Works beautifully able to retain magazine capacity too. The JCP on the other hand it actually made it alot worse. Went from 1 FTF per magazine to every other round took about 2 coils out and going to try again i will keep you all informed of my progress on the JCP. The c9 i am very happy with it was a light test about 100 rounds through the JCP and 250 through the c9 20180125_143315.jpg 20180125_143315.jpg 20180125_143315.jpg
     
  2. 345Sire

    345Sire Member

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    good luck with the testing, hope the springs give you the results you are after.
    I like your selective polishing work.
     

  3. welderman

    welderman Member

  4. Wyatt_Storch

    Wyatt_Storch Member

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    That link in the comment above gives a 500 server error. I'm having trouble locating it.

    I'm having similar problems with my C9. Nosediving. Impact from bullets has mungered up the bottom of the feed ramp, making the problem a little worse. I have some new mags on the way, hoping maybe they will help but I will sacrifice one of the old ones to the cause, trying for a bubba fix. So far I've gotten a little improvement but the problem persists. The worst case is when the round under the top one gets snagged (really hard) by the case rim of the top round and angles down inside the magazine. The whole stack rotates down and because of the geometry of the angled stack no amount of spring tension or follower angle can angle them up again. Some of them actually nose into the inside of the magazine.

    I have the .380 and two 9mm carbines and they don't have this problem.

    I love my C9 and would love it even more if I could get it to be reliable somehow.

    Sorry to resurrect this old post but I appreciate any wisdom that can be shared on this matter.
     
  5. Dane

    Dane Supporting Member

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    looks like a lot of the stickies links aren't working.

    C9 new or used? Picture of loaded mag?

    Welcome to the forum BTW.
     
  6. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    My first WAG without pictures...loosen the feed lips.
     
  7. Wyatt_Storch

    Wyatt_Storch Member

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    New C9. About 5 - 600 rounds in.

    On the magazine I dedicated to bubba fixing, I did the magazine lip adjustment; straightened the front wings and spread the curved lips about .010". It mostly fixed the issue, but not completely. The cartridges won't really behave until it gets to five or fewer rounds in the mag. I've seen every possible combination suggested as a fix. Wider, narrower on the lips, some lengthen the spring, some actually cut turns out. Etc. I tried the spring mangling ... it started out three inches longer than stock, and lo and behold after fully loading it, it goes back to the original length! LOL. My examination of the issue leaves me baffled. (I should point out this is on a ten round mag.)

    Thanks for your thoughts and your reply.
     
  8. @Jerseydollar I'm not sure if you said you were using 8 round or 10 round mags?
     
  9. cma=454

    cma=454 Member

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  10. welderman

    welderman Member

    I'm having trouble right now with all stickies links in the forum. I went to the reloading room stickies to look something up and all of the links give that same error.

    Help us Mods, please. :headbang:
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  11. welderman

    welderman Member

    Not trying to be funny but are you limp wristing at all? Blow back operated pistols require a little bit more stiffness in the wrist.
    I ask because I sold a C 9 to my brother and he complained about a ftf with every other round. He wanted me to disassemble and fix the problem. I took it, broke it down, cleaned it and put 50 rounds through it like they were water. Gave it back and he had the same problem. Now, granted, I had already adjusted the mag feed lips earlier. He took it back out, same problem, so I told him we can go out together and I'll bring my JCP and he could bring the C 9 and I'd show him what I meant. You need to rock a little more at the elbows than the wrist with the recoil. The gun needs a little firmer foundation in order to return to battery.
     
  12. Wyatt_Storch

    Wyatt_Storch Member

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    Nope, not limp-wristing. The first round out of any magazine simply jams on the feed ramp. Nosedive. Second and third round too, on most magazines, after the feed lip adjustment. I'm sending it in for repair because one time someone (not me) tried to palm-butt the slide closed on a nosedived round and dented the bottom of the feed ramp. That's when it went from occasional mis-feed to every full magazine. I smoothed the feed ramp to remove the big burr that was raised, but the problem only got a little better.

    I've dedicated one of my magazines to the cause, trying every bubba-fix I can find on the internet and figure out what is really happening on this gun and have come to some unlikely conclusions:
    1. The issue starts with geometry. In a single stack with 8 or 10 rounds at the angle used for the handle on this gun design, the magazine follower and lip angle hold the cartridges at an angle that allows them to feed without undue collision on the feed ramp or anywhere else you don't want them smacking, but only for the last 5 rounds or so. Any more than that it doesn't matter how much spring force or where it is applied, you just can't push that stack and keep the angle pointing up. Because each round is forward of the round below it, any more than 5 or so deep and the top rounds can't be rotated from the bottom of the stack. Because of the way the force is vectored up the stack, I figure.
    2. By design or by luck, the top round can be pointed up, by the way it contacts the feed lips. But the one just below can't. Consequently the case rim (I know it's not rimmed, maybe it should be called the extractor ring) of the top round fits perfectly into the groove machined into the round below, to form that extractor ring on the cartridge case. Now when the bolt comes along to strip it off, it contacts the top of the cartridge rim which is sitting there pointed up some, and consequently the round obligingly rotates around where the case rim is snagged on the groove of the one below it. Hard. Now the top round is pointed either back down into the magazine or straight at the bottom of the feed ramp as the slide advances. It moves forward as the top round pops out of the groove in the next lower round.
    3. Most of the time, it works despite this by having the round hit the feed ramp at the bottom and deflect the nose upward after which things proceed as normal.
    4. Opening the feed lips helps after problems start, but likely only because it changes where the rounds hit the feed ramp a little.
    5. Contrary to most internet opinion, the problem (on MY gun at least) is not weak magazine springs. Increasing spring pressure only increases the lock-up between the top round and the one below where the rim of the top one snags the groove in the one below, multiplying the friction and rotating them down harder. DECREASING the spring tension eases that friction and allows feeding without rotating them down. In my experimentation I was able to decrease the spring tension to the point where they would reliably feed ... but at that point the spring was to weak to actuate the slide hold-open mechanism.

    So here's my speculation on what happened with MY gun.
    Brand new it worked out of the box for a lot of rounds.
    Because of the geometry, the bottom of the slide ramp is critical to operation with a full mag. (A less than ideal compromise but we're not looking to redesign the gun here.)
    After a lot of use, the hard shellac or whatever it is finish wore at the impact point of the slide ramp. Paint started visibly flaking off down there.
    That started causing occasional jam-ups feeding the top rounds out of a full mag.
    One time a friend of mine had a jam-up on the first round on racking the slide. He saw the round stuck on the feed ramp and tried to slam it home by hitting the slide with his palm.
    That dented the soft metal of the feed ramp. Put a sizable divot in it.
    After that it wouldn't feed the first round from a full magazine, period.
    That's what started me on this odyssey.
    After I smoothed the raised area of the dent, it got better but not much.
    I can't put the material back where the dent is, and sometimes the nose of the projectile hits down there and it can't ride up the feed ramp. I verified this with some bluing ink on a couple rounds and looking where it left the witness mark (never used anything but fmj decent brand ammo).
    So, my conjecture is as follows: If I had widened the lips of the mags before using them, which raises the point of impact a little, most likely the feed ramp wouldn't have had the finish worn off down there. At least not as soon. (I looked at my other single-stacks. Some have less angle on the handle and thus the magazine, but they all came from the factory with hard steel polished feed ramps. The ones with similar angle have a similar tendency to nose down some and likewise rely on the feed ramp to angle the round up.)

    The nice feller on the phone at customer service suggested, without me telling any of my crazy theories, but only having nosediving problems even after adjusting the magazine feed lips, that I send the gun to them, he said they might have to replace the barrel because of a dent or burr at the bottom of the feed ramp. Which seems to make sense to me ...

    Anyway I might be all wrong about all of this, as usual. My .380 doesn't have the problem (as much) because the cartridges are shorter -- I think. I design and build machines. Springs and friction are the devil to me. But that's my report on magazine trial and error. Along the way to this already too windy report, I bought different springs, different magazines, tried different magazine bending tricks, ran through a bunch of ammo and a bunch of range visits. I spent a lot of time flogging my feeble brain on how the system is intended to work. I strove to make my tests not-random. I left the unimportant details out to punish the innocent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    Rufus Nathaniel REDD likes this.
  13. Wyatt_Storch

    Wyatt_Storch Member

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    A few things I learned along the way:
    Most magazine designs pretty much ignore the recommended limitations on deflection of spring steel that are recommended for springs in other applications (like for instance valve springs in an engine or coil springs in a car's suspension). The springs are pretty much crammed down flat when most mags are full. So the age-old debate about springs taking a set when left loaded, besides always prompting repetition of old wives tales, actually can only be answered by "It depends". Like almost anything else in metallurgy.

    One thing I discovered, there are some youtube videos out there that advocate taking a couple pairs of pliers and bending each link in the magazine spring to make its free length longer and strengthen it. Well when you do that, then assemble and fully load the magazine, it just overbends the original bends, and upon disassembly it ends up right back at the original free length. So it doesn't strengthen the spring at all. They went to more trouble than it looks like to make that magazine spring. The wire diameter is chosen for a reason and its fabrication is already damn near the limits of what a spring in that space with that much extension can do. A thicker wire (as used in Glock 43 mags) sure enough is stronger. But if you cram down to completely compressed, it shortens up the free length the first time. So that's a dry hole. I got one to work by cutting off one full turn and not cramming the mag full. Of course that was along the way to discovering that the problem isn't weak springs, more force only makes the problem worse.

    It appears the magazine springs are designed to wear in before they wear out.
    Just in case anyone is interested.
     
  14. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    All this ^^^^^, TLDR.

    Next time use the forum. All of your answers, suppositions, repairs, and any information you actually needed are already on here.

    Only thing you don't mention anywhere? Leaving the magazines loaded at all times. That and the feed lip adjustment fix 99.99% of any feed issues in these firearms. Everything else, including polishing the ramp, is just adding variables that push the solution further away.

    Unless you're Daveindenver and refuse to drive an hour to meet me so I can fix your firearm for free and instead choose to send it back to HP and wait a month, just to run in to the same issues when you get it back.
     
  15. ratchowmein

    ratchowmein Member

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    Did you adjust or check the angle and fit of the follower in the magazine case ?
     
  16. TNTRAILERTRASH

    TNTRAILERTRASH Supporting Member

    When loading the mags push the back side of the round down to get it "nose up." Of course whack the back of the mag into your palm.

    If you end up sending it back to "mom" you need to send all of the mags!
     
  17. Wyatt_Storch

    Wyatt_Storch Member

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    Rachgier -- "All this ^^^^^, TLDR."
    Other than pointing out that I not only read every thread here and indeed across the internet that I could find, including watching every video too, over the course of many weeks before saying the first word about it, I'll just say that following your lead, I disregarded everything you wrote too.

    No, just kidding, thanks for the response. I do keep the mags loaded (that's what I own them for). I've never had one change with age.

    I did send it back. It didn't take a month to get it back. It took a week to get it back. As expected they were gracious and generous. They fixed a bunch of stuff that wasn't broken, send some spare parts I asked for at no charge, tossed in an extra magazine with a note describing what they did. An excellent experience with customer service.

    What's notable that they did is they completely 'polished' the feed ramp. That means there's a little divot of material missing at the bottom of it where the dent used to be. And that's where the nose of the round smacks head on. After receiving it back from the factory it ran fine for about the first six magazines full, then the issue came back.

    Ratchowmein, yes I check the fit of the followers and deburr them. I haven't found it to be relevant to this issue though.

    Tntrailertrash, yes I go through all that, though it makes no difference. The bottom four or five rounds sit up at the right angle on all mags when they feed up. Anything higher than that (the top four or so rounds), when the bolt comes forward it rotates down. The gun design has to take care of that, making them feed anyway. So where that little divot is taken out of the soft ramp material, that's where the rounds hang up.

    I'm going to try for a new barrel (along with the feed ramp that is cast onto it). I hope they'll just sell me one. It's expensive to ship the gun. The magazine feed lip adjustment is the preventive fix for this problem, I'm convinced. Open the width between the lips to about .360". Best do it before problems show up with deformation of the feed ramp, I think. That lets each round sit a little higher so those first few rounds out of the mag hit the ramp a little higher where there is thicker material. All the other things I tried that are spread all over the internet had nothing to do with the problem as exhibited on MY two Hi-Points.

    Thanks for your replies and helpful suggestions.
     
  18. Wyatt, a very good description of your problem. How was it resolved, did you get a new barrel?
     
  19. Moving along to the 4095, I have 5 10-round mags for it, 3 stock and 2 aftermarket all of which work perfectly. I bought 2 Pro Mag 15-round mags and got them just in time to try them out at a match. The first try went perfect, and the second which I believe was with the other mag, got me (I think) a double feed on the third shot. Hard to tell as that stage was shot with the lights out. Cleared the extra round and had no trouble to the end.

    I read all this and more and checked the lip width. All my old mags and one of the new ones ran .375 +.003,-.000. The other new one measured .390/.395 which I'm guessing was the one that mis fed.

    No one has published any measurements which the mags should adhere to so I'm going to guess that the magic number for the .40 cal is .375. Can anyone confirm this?