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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Back in the early 90's Winchester came out with a round called the Black Talon. Not long afterwards bad guys used them in a shoot out with cops and that was right around the time when Teflon coated "cop killer" bullets were in the news. The media had such a hay day with any kind of different ammo that most of it was pulled from the shelves. I believe it was CBS that reported that Black Talon bullets were designed to go through body armor and explode throwing lethal shrapnel in all directions and they couldn't even be used to hunt because the animal would be shredded! Winchester tried to explain that they were in fact hunting bullets that didn't explode and the moly coating was added to reduce bore wear and enhance accuracy but to no avail, so they stopped making them. I read somewhere that the moly while reducing friction, also reduced pressure and slowed the bullet down which seems contradictory to me.
I bought some Moly spray and dry powder ( the real name is Molybdenum Di-Sulfide) the other day and I'm loading Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos 32gn. bullets for my 5.7x28mm and I'm going to shoot both through a chronograph (with and without Moly) and see how much difference it makes. I'm also just getting into powder coating lead bullets for various handgun calibers and will add a little Moly powder to that too. Back in my 20's when dinosaurs roamed the earth I used to race motorcycles and we would add a small container of liquid Moly suspension to our oil. I would watch my idle rpms go up nearly 1000 due to the reduced friction so I'm kind of psyched about fooling around with this stuff again!
 

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Back in the early 90's Winchester came out with a round called the Black Talon. Not long afterwards bad guys used them in a shoot out with cops and that was right around the time when Teflon coated "cop killer" bullets were in the news. The media had such a hay day with any kind of different ammo that most of it was pulled from the shelves. I believe it was CBS that reported that Black Talon bullets were designed to go through body armor and explode throwing lethal shrapnel in all directions and they couldn't even be used to hunt because the animal would be shredded! Winchester tried to explain that they were in fact hunting bullets that didn't explode and the moly coating was added to reduce bore wear and enhance accuracy but to no avail, so they stopped making them. I read somewhere that the moly while reducing friction, also reduced pressure and slowed the bullet down which seems contradictory to me.
I bought some Moly spray and dry powder ( the real name is Molybdenum Di-Sulfide) the other day and I'm loading Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos 32gn. bullets for my 5.7x28mm and I'm going to shoot both through a chronograph (with and without Moly) and see how much difference it makes. I'm also just getting into powder coating lead bullets for various handgun calibers and will add a little Moly powder to that too. Back in my 20's when dinosaurs roamed the earth I used to race motorcycles and we would add a small container of liquid Moly suspension to our oil. I would watch my idle rpms go up nearly 1000 due to the reduced friction so I'm kind of psyched about fooling around with this stuff again!
As you said, I messed with it some when dirt was young and I had hair. It did seem to reduce friction and pressure, but I had an awful time getting the stuff out of my barrels. I eventually went back to regular Sierra bullets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
As you said, I messed with it some when dirt was young and I had hair. It did seem to reduce friction and pressure, but I had an awful time getting the stuff out of my barrels. I eventually went back to regular Sierra bullets.
I was told that it bonds with the metal so yeah, it's probably tough to get out. I don't know if that's good or bad. Was it affecting accuracy?
 

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I was told that it bonds with the metal so yeah, it's probably tough to get out. I don't know if that's good or bad. Was it affecting accuracy?
I never noticed a big issue wit accuracy - one way or another. One guy I worked with claimed to really made his guns shoot better. I got about the same with or without in my groundhog rifle. Groups with my .308 BLR stayed about the same using 748 and CCI primers. Maybe experimenting with other powders would have yielded better results, maybe not. 1.5 inches was close enough for me
 

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It's reported to seep into the pores of the metal, in engines...

Any pressure "reduction" would really only show up on a piezo transducer, and in theory ONLY
be the result of the bullet leaving the barrel FASTER because of reduced friction. If the moly is
"deposited" it would tend to also make the bullet seal better. These are just general physics,
not really specific to firearms. But I see no specifics as to why these would not apply? 🤔
 

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The media had such a hay day with any kind of different ammo that most of it was pulled from the shelves. I believe it was CBS that reported that Black Talon bullets were designed to go through body armor and explode throwing lethal shrapnel in all directions and they couldn't even be used to hunt because the animal would be shredded! Winchester tried to explain that they were in fact hunting bullets that didn't explode and the moly coating was added to reduce bore wear and enhance accuracy but to no avail, so they stopped making them.
hehee, I read that they didn't stop making them, they just paused and renamed them...
The stupid Lame Stream Media was on to something else by then!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
It's reported to seep into the pores of the metal, in engines...

Any pressure "reduction" would really only show up on a piezo transducer, and in theory ONLY
be the result of the bullet leaving the barrel FASTER because of reduced friction. If the moly is
"deposited" it would tend to also make the bullet seal better. These are just general physics,
not really specific to firearms. But I see no specifics as to why these would not apply? 🤔
I'm no Physicist but I'm going to guess it would have something to due with the friction co- efficient. It's definitely slippery stuff and works well in engines. I agree that it doesn't seem to make sense that pressure would be reduced AND the bullet would come out slower.
 

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Back in the early 90's Winchester came out with a round called the Black Talon. Not long afterwards bad guys used them in a shoot out with cops and that was right around the time when Teflon coated "cop killer" bullets were in the news. The media had such a hay day with any kind of different ammo that most of it was pulled from the shelves. I believe it was CBS that reported that Black Talon bullets were designed to go through body armor and explode throwing lethal shrapnel in all directions and they couldn't even be used to hunt because the animal would be shredded! Winchester tried to explain that they were in fact hunting bullets that didn't explode and the moly coating was added to reduce bore wear and enhance accuracy but to no avail, so they stopped making them. I read somewhere that the moly while reducing friction, also reduced pressure and slowed the bullet down which seems contradictory to me.
I bought some Moly spray and dry powder ( the real name is Molybdenum Di-Sulfide) the other day and I'm loading Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos 32gn. bullets for my 5.7x28mm and I'm going to shoot both through a chronograph (with and without Moly) and see how much difference it makes. I'm also just getting into powder coating lead bullets for various handgun calibers and will add a little Moly powder to that too. Back in my 20's when dinosaurs roamed the earth I used to race motorcycles and we would add a small container of liquid Moly suspension to our oil. I would watch my idle rpms go up nearly 1000 due to the reduced friction so I'm kind of psyched about fooling around with this stuff again!
The 'Cop Killer Rounds' nomenclature was assigned to the KTW Teflon coated bullets that came out in the very early 1980's.

The Teflon coating was to provide protection to the lands of the firearms shooting the KTW ammunition which used a hardened truncated projectile.

A demoncrat Representative heard about this ammunition and started telling anyone who would listen that it would penetrate soft body armor being issued to Police at the time.

The result of this person's announcements was the doubling of Police deaths due to follow up shots to their heads by the criminals as they didn't have access to the KTW ammunition.

The Representative from NY State was later sent to jail for crimes he'd committed while in office.

Helpful eldar
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Actually KTW was formed in 1960 by an Ohio Coroner and three cops. They started with lead hand gun bullets which could easily deform and began experimenting with different coatings. They eventually had moved on to long gun bullets many of which were solid brass or a combination of brass and steel and found that they caused premature barrel wear. They later added a copper cup and eventually driving bands like you see on some Barnes bullets ( driving bands weren't a new invention). They experimented with different coatings including teflon , moly, and various other compound's. They found that teflon actually helped bullets defeat glass and some thin metal barriers but actually slowed the bullets ability to defeat soft body amor. NBC ran a story about those in the '80s and Hollywood helped perpetuate the myth into the 90's. KTW was turned over to North American Ordinance in 1980 and stopped production in the early 90's.
The Black Talon defensive hand gun round differed from the hunting round it that it was a hollow point with petals that opened on impact like a lot of modern HPs. In 1993 a gunman killed 15 people in San Francisco with Black Talon hand gun ammo. I mistakenly thought the round used Moly but it doesn't. The lubelox coating is a proprietary coating that oxidizes the copper and Winchester has reintroduced the round as " FailSafe " ammo. It has no teflon or Moly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sorry about the misspelled words I haven't figured out how to turn off predictive text and don't see where I can edit on this new format.
 

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Sorry about the misspelled words I haven't figured out how to turn off predictive text and don't see where I can edit on this new format.
See the three vertical dots in the upper right hand corner of everyone's posting?
Tap that then select edit on the next screen.

Helpful eldar
 

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Actually KTW was formed in 1960 by an Ohio Coroner and three cops. They started with lead hand gun bullets which could easily deform and began experimenting with different coatings. They eventually had moved on to long gun bullets many of which were solid brass or a combination of brass and steel and found that they caused premature barrel wear. They later added a copper cup and eventually driving bands like you see on some Barnes bullets ( driving bands weren't a new invention). They experimented with different coatings including teflon , moly, and various other compound's. They found that teflon actually helped bullets defeat glass and some thin metal barriers but actually slowed the bullets ability to defeat soft body amor. NBC ran a story about those in the '80s and Hollywood helped perpetuate the myth into the 90's. KTW was turned over to North American Ordinance in 1980 and stopped production in the early 90's.
The Black Talon defensive hand gun round differed from the hunting round it that it was a hollow point with petals that opened on impact like a lot of modern HPs. In 1993 a gunman killed 15 people in San Francisco with Black Talon hand gun ammo. I mistakenly thought the round used Moly but it doesn't. The lubelox coating is a proprietary coating that oxidizes the copper and Winchester has reintroduced the round as " FailSafe " ammo. It has no teflon or Moly.
The NY Representative's name was Biaggio.
Very vocal antigunner.

NY State Police were being issued Type I vests - good for low velocity bullets.
Not good enough for the 9mm's many criminals were upgrading to at the time.

eldar
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The NY Representative's name was Biaggio.
Very vocal antigunner.

NY State Police were being issued Type I vests - good for low velocity bullets.
Not good enough for the 9mm's many criminals were upgrading to at the time.

eldar
I think I missed part of your post
 

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the moly coating was added to reduce bore wear and enhance accuracy
I think that it was a black oxide coating called "Lubalox" or the like, not actually moly, though it does give a similar appearance and serves pretty much the same purpose.

hehee, I read that they didn't stop making them, they just paused and renamed them...
The stupid Lame Stream Media was on to something else by then!
Win discontinued the Black Talon bullet line and introduced the SXT bullet line which had similar characteristics and, externally, looks much the same. They made some internal design changes to the bullet. I think it was to basically change some of the angles to make it expand more reliably. And they seemed to have removed the "barbs" that Black Talon pistol bullets were famous for. Yeah, I know no one talks about those barbs ("talons") now, but the the marketing folks made a big deal of it at the time. I remember gun shops had display samples in clear resin of the expanded bullet and the gunstore guys always pointed out the good expansion properties and the barbs. I don't recall if it was in the company literature but it was certainly talked about. I think there was even some media bs hype about the barbs potentially cutting the gloves of any surgeon who might try to remove the bullet from a person shot.

I think I'm going to have to duckduck a bit and see if I can find pics and corporate lit from the time.

[edit]
73012

73013



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I think that it was a black oxide coating called "Lubalox" or the like, not actually moly, though it does give a similar appearance and serves pretty much the same purpose.

Win discontinued the Black Talon bullet line and introduced the SXT bullet line which had similar characteristics and, externally, looks much the same. They made some internal design changes to the bullet. I think it was to basically change some of the angles to make it expand more reliably. And they seemed to have removed the "barbs" that Black Talon pistol bullets were famous for. Yeah, I know no one talks about those barbs ("talons") now, but the the marketing folks made a big deal of it at the time. I remember gun shops had display samples in clear resin of the expanded bullet and the gunstore guys always pointed out the good expansion properties and the barbs. I don't recall if it was in the company literature but it was certainly talked about. I think there was even some media bs hype about the barbs potentially cutting the gloves of any surgeon who might try to remove the bullet from a person shot.

I think I'm going to have to duckduck a bit and see if I can find pics and corporate lit from the time.

[edit]
View attachment 73012
View attachment 73013


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Have you seen The RIPs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I think that it was a black oxide coating called "Lubalox" or the like, not actually moly, though it does give a similar appearance and serves pretty much the same purpose.

Win discontinued the Black Talon bullet line and introduced the SXT bullet line which had similar characteristics and, externally, looks much the same. They made some internal design changes to the bullet. I think it was to basically change some of the angles to make it expand more reliably. And they seemed to have removed the "barbs" that Black Talon pistol bullets were famous for. Yeah, I know no one talks about those barbs ("talons") now, but the the marketing folks made a big deal of it at the time. I remember gun shops had display samples in clear resin of the expanded bullet and the gunstore guys always pointed out the good expansion properties and the barbs. I don't recall if it was in the company literature but it was certainly talked about. I think there was even some media bs hype about the barbs potentially cutting the gloves of any surgeon who might try to remove the bullet from a person shot.

I think I'm going to have to duckduck a bit and see if I can find pics and corporate lit from the time.

[edit]
View attachment 73012
View attachment 73013


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The running joke for SXT was that it stood for Same Exact Thing, they actually went through a couple rebranding's and separated the hand gun ammo name from the rifle hunting round. The Fail Safe hunting round was very similar to a Nosler partition and quite popular, not sure where that went. I think PDX is the name of their defensive ammo now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The NY Representative's name was Biaggio.
Very vocal antigunner.

NY State Police were being issued Type I vests - good for low velocity bullets.
Not good enough for the 9mm's many criminals were upgrading to at the time.

eldar
Gotcha, I'm not the fastest horse in the race, but I usually get there before they shoot me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I saw the movie on cable.


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
RIP = radically invasive projectile , according to Gizmodo outlawed by the Geneva Convention. They show " how the round rips your internal organs apart" on a ballistic gel video. I like that movie.
 
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