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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,

As most of you know, I've got a real affinity toward pistol caliber rifles, especially the 9mm. I'd like to build sort of an urban sniper rifle; something compact and quiet, easy to suppress and cheap to shoot.

If you were given the assignment to build a pistol caliber rifle with the following specs, how would you go about it. Include glass selection, threading service, custom bull barrels, rebarrelled actions, suppressor picks, &c. Run wild.

* Any common pistol caliber (9mm, .40, .45. No, the sawed-off M44 in .54R doesn't count)

* 2 MOA or better at 100 yards.

* Suppressed.

* Scoped.

* Uses real-world attainable parts. Attainable, not necessarily affordable. $2500 custom stock... good. Flux capacitors... bad.

* Semi-auto or bolt action.

*Bonus if you can build it for less than $2000.

-'bridge
 

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Idle thought, but what about .357 magnum? If lever action were acceptable, you'd already have starter platforms out there. Or maybe not quite what you had in mind since your other ideas listed are rimless.
 

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Could you suppress a magnum? That's quite a bang...
 

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9 mil out of a carbine shoots flat out to a hundred and twenty yards from my trials. I've seen some Kel-Tec 9mm carbines that look like there from the Devils own Spetznatz forces. I've got one and have kept it stock - for now :devilsidesmile:

Mostly because I've been concentrating on a Marlin 60 with 3x9 scope and just mounted the bipod on Wednesday. I'm hoping for sub half inch groups with it on Saturday morning. X
 

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AR build maybe? Probably your best bet-- and parts are ready and easy work with...
 

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Could you suppress a magnum? That's quite a bang...
I've shot a suppressed 10mm. That's basically a magnum version of the .40S&W.
10mm predated 40 S&W. when teh FBI decided that 10mm was "too powerful" they shortened the case so it fit in 9mm OAL guns so agents could handle it better. viola the 40 short and wimpy.

SW
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I wish I could just order a custom barrel for the Cx4... heavy, fluted, and threaded. Unfortunately, putting a threaded barrel on the Cx4 requires registering it as an SBR and I don't see the point. Yet.

I thought about having a local barrel guy make one for the 995 but with the factory trigger and whatnot, I'm not thinking it's the platform for the job.

-'b
 

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...sort of an urban sniper rifle; something compact and quiet, easy to suppress ...
I read that and think you're wanting to reinvent the DeLisle Carbine:

The originals were made with actions readily available, I'd just do the same today. The caliber was a handgun round in issue at the time. They were said to be extremely effective.

And yes, I'd love to have one as well. Maybe that is what I should build for my suppressed SBR!

A 98 Mauser derivative shortened to be appropriate to the round chosen ( still not sure what I'd use, but it's got to be subsonic, so the .45 ACP still rules among other choices). Appropriately suppressed. Scope should definitely be a night vision device (this alone would break the $2000 limit)

Except for the scope it should be doable under $2K.

When you build it please post pictures.

 

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What was the nickname for the DeLisle?
I was just talking to someone about that not long ago. It was sentry popper or Guard dropper or something like that wasn't it?

Why is .22 Magnum not on the list? You are saying "strictly urban", so I'm thinkin 200 yards or less right?

It's common, it's cheap, you have a huge selection of starting platforms and for strictly urban work 150 yards or less it could work.

.22 Hornet is another sub 150 yard possibility.

Actually 5.7x28mm is compact, urban ready and has a range of available rounds including FMJ Amor Peircing, Tracer, and Hollow Point.


You need to make clear what the "need" is.

If it's a standoff weapon or force multiplyer don't bother with any pistol caliber round. Distance is your friend, and pistol calibers aren't freindly in that case.

If you need to stop the motor function in a single target as discreetly as possible in close proximity, then .22WMR, .22Hornet, or the 5.7x28mm can work. All three of these could be more easily suppressed than .45acp or even 9mm. Plus low recoil makes double taps much more possible. The limiter on these is that you can't really penetrate that targets spine from the main body cavity with any of these rounds.
It would have to be all head shots, all the time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
.22 MAG is viable, although reloading would obviously be more difficult. I've only shot a little of the .22 MAG so I'm not sure of the availability of subsonic rounds. It would be nice to not necessarily rely on headshots, have a little more cross-section to the round. But for urban sniping I can see where it would be very practical. I'd love to get a 10/22 in magnum.

I know next to nothing about the 5.7 and would be worried about availability of rounds in the future. I agree with SW, if the FBI would've just grown a pair and stuck with the 10mm the world would be a happier place. Never much saw the point in the .40.

Rhineland arms used to make a kit to turn an Enfield or Mauser into a .45 that took 1911 mags. That would be pretty close to the De Lisle and damn near perfect.

There is no need per se. Mostly I'd like to have a rifle that I can rely on for 100-125 yards that could be made very quiet. This would be handy for in and around urban areas where long shots aren't likely. It would also be nice for taking medium sized game, either nuisance animals or for survival poaching should the need arise. I'm leaning toward a pistol caliber because they're easier to reload should that become a necessity, have a lower sound signature thus easier to suppress, cheaper to shoot, less complicated inner workings compared to their semi-auto full-sized brethren, and easier to pack/stockpile larger quantities of ammo. Plus there's that whole longarm/sidearm shared ammunition thing that I've always been a huge fan of.

HK experimented with a 9mm sniper rifle for the American market called the HK94SG1. Basically it was a standard 94/MP5 with the PSG1 stock and a lengthened barrel. A decent attempt although supposedly it could've benefited from the PSG1 trigger pack. Plus the "we're HK and we hate you" price tag.

Maybe my best bet would be to get a custom barrel made for either the Cx4 (groan, another $200 tax stamp) or my Kel Tec Sub2K. The problem with the KT is I have yet to get the scope mount working properly or obtain a scope that allows the gun to fold up, which is the whole point of the Sub2K to begin with. Never understood festooning a KT with all that gear so you can't close it. Totally defeats the purpose.

I'd probably be further ahead to do another 995 build (my third) and get a barrel turned for it. It's just that I've never gotten used to that trigger.

-'bridge
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The 995 is an obvious solution. I'd probably want a custom barrel turned for it. I'd need to probably channel out the stock (def. go ATI. I can put one of my home-built cheek rests on that much easier than the factory stock) for a heavier contoured barrel. The trigger's a bit dicey. Also I'd be worried that the lack of flex with the ATI coupled with the suppressor might overdrive the gun a bit leading to internal wear or breakage.

It's been a while since I've mounted a scope on a 995; I'm not really remembering whether or not I had difficulties putting one on or not.

The only other issue would be getting a flat surface on the bottom of the forend to mount a bipod without grinding out a Cx4 mount or some similar fix. These are all minor issues but if you add them all up it might turn into something.

I just wish the internals of the 995 had more aftermarket support. Even Bushman is hard to find these days. I'm kicking myself that I didn't put the factory charging handle back on before I sold my last 995.

-'b
 

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Maybe you can make a 995 into something like this




VSS 'Vintorez' silenced sniper rifle (USSR/Russia)

Caliber: 9x39mm SP-5 and SP-6 subsonic cartridges
Action: auto, selective fire, gas-operated, striker-fired.
Length: 894mm
Barrel length: 200 mm
Weight: empty: 2.6 kg, loaded w. scope PSO-1: 3.41 kg
Magazine: 10 or 20 rounds detachable box
 

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OK, I think I see what you are wanting a little clearer now.

Caliber .45 ACP. Already subsonic in most loadings, available everwhere in the USA and many firearms are chambered for it. The round is capable of your accuracy standard. A friend of mine used to win bets that he couldn't put 7 rounds into the head of an IPSC target at 100 yards with his 6" bbl iron sighted "race gun". He never lost until his one good eye started going bad too. :angel:

In a bolt action, I would start with an Ishapore SMLE in .308 and re-create the Delisle Carbine. Boltface is already sized for the .45ACP so all that would be needed for a basic conversion is a .45 bbl and a magwell adapter to accept a .45 magazine. 1911, Glock, SIG, whatever your companion pistol mag happens to be. Want to get fancy and have the tooling? Cut a section out and shorten the action, reducing weight and length.

For a semi auto, there are several choices like the UZI, the HK, various MP5 clones, Marlin Camp Guns, Thompsons, ARs, etc. I would start from scratch and make a "tube gun". A simple rectangular tube for an upper receiver, use the bolt and recoil assy. out of an UZI or Thompson M1 with a slot and firing pin to convert it to hammer fired operation. Simple bent sheetmetal lower to accept a Chip McCorrmick or similar "one piece drop in" Match FCG. Magwell for an M3 "greasegun" mag if high capacity is desired, or one sized to fit a pistol mag if one wants sidearm magazine compatability. ACE folding stock assembly for compactness. Free floating bbl assy with a short extension coming off the receiver Ala' the Thompson for foregrip and/or bipod mounting. Welded on Picatinny rails for scope mounting, lasers, etc. Added bonus of no paperwork or serial number required on a home built gun unless you SBR it. If that is beyond your tooling and skills, the AR is probably the best off the shelf solution.

Bbl length would depend on whether or not you want to SBR it. I would think the most efficient bbl on a .45ACP would be around 10-12 inches. To port or not to port? If using an integral, non removeable suppressor the way to go is porting. If you weld on the suppressor tube the shorter bbl is not an SBR issue. If a screw on is used, porting is not an option.

Integral or screw on? Integrals are usually quieter for the same size compared to a screw on. They would also be a custom made or DIY build instead of off the shelf. More compact lengthwise if welded on as the screw on would need a 16" bbl or an SBR tax stamp in addition to the suppressor stamp. OTOH, a screw on can be bought ready made, can also fit your chosen sidearm, and is separate should you wish to sell either the gun or the suppressor.


Almost any good scope is gonna work at 125 yards. I never did see the point of fastening a $400 rifle to an $1800 scope but maybe that's just me?
 

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i have a old copy of the shotgun news where a old smith converted a spanish mauser over to .45acpwith a kit someone puts out
ill try to find it tomorrow.iirc, it took 1911 mags
 

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You guys know that a 22lr, while not having "sniper standard mass" can be fired accuratly up to like 300yrds right? And still be lethal past 400yrds. In fact the 22lr is deadly far out past what you can accuratly fire. No its not really reloadable, and yes it wont punch through body armor, but in a pistol caliber not much Will punch through body armor. BUT it is EXTREMELY lightweight, there are literally hundreds of platforms ready made as well as coming in any action your little heart desires. Plus they come in hundreds of pistol options as well. Hell for the weight and compactness you can carry this as a third "specialist "gun strictly for sniping in urban areas. And ammo availability is beter than any other round out there period. Under 2k? Hell this could be done under 1k.

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You did notice that this thread and the last entry was from 2009, right? ;)
 
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