[Visper]

Just because there are more doesn't make them better

i have often called the AR the peasants weapon. It just works, even when neglected. the M16 needs to be looked after.

If I had an army of irregulars, yes, I would arm them with the AK. But if I had a professional army, I would arm them with the M16.

I did list other reasons... only reason I listed the numbers was more or less to state there are a ton more for a reason...

AR is not a peasants weapon in my opinion. The AR and M16 really have or had the same downfalls. A lot of those have been addressed over the years though.

Hey, why I said debatable, you have your belief and I have mine. You wont convince me otherwise and it very well seems I won't be convincing you lol.

Agree to disagree.

 

[moona11]

AK is a better war gun. Its simple and effective. It gets a bad rap because of untrained bad guys not knowing how to shoot. The AR platform is a better gear nut gun. Both still need user that train on using them. But the AR needs more maintenance to use reliably. Accuracy hands down AR, but man size targets are not an issue with AK if you sight it in correctly and can shoot. But I did prefer a SKS until I got an M+M Ak.

 

[ajole]

AKs are "superior" in my mind because they are durable and proven to work under any conditions. Don't need to "tune the rifle" with adjustable gas blocks or different buffer springs and weights.

You don’t have to tune an AR at all, unless you decide to use oddball weight ammo, or different gas system lengths. Use a carbine gas tube, get a carbine buffer and spring, and shoot 55 grain all day long. Easy. Pistol length? Or a 9 mm AR? Well..that’s a bit specialized, but….Use a heavier buffer, easy. Oddball heavy ammo? Run a heavier buffer….if you need to. It may not matter.

AK is a better war gun. Its simple and effective. It gets a bad rap because of untrained bad guys not knowing how to shoot. The AR platform is a better gear nut gun. Both still need user that train on using them. But the AR needs more maintenance to use reliably. Accuracy hands down AR, but man size targets are not an issue with AK if you sight it in correctly and can shoot. But I did prefer a SKS until I got an M+M Ak.

The AR is also durable and proven to work under any conditions….if the user will simply lube it nice in a while. I haven’t cleaned an AR in over a year. My buddy cleans his when he orders a new case of ammo. And that’s the steel crap. To your point, the AR gets a bad rap because of untrained or lazy guys not lubing the guns. It doesn’t really take “more maintenance” and tests have proven the AR is more resistant to mud and dirt.

All that said, I’d love to play with a newer modern AK.

 

[Visper]

You don’t have to tune an AR at all, unless you decide to use oddball weight ammo, or different gas system lengths. Use a carbine gas tube, get a carbine buffer and spring, and shoot 55 grain all day long. Easy. Pistol length? Or a 9 mm AR? Well..that’s a bit specialized, but….Use a heavier buffer, easy. Oddball heavy ammo? Run a heavier buffer….if you need to. It may not matter.

The AR is also durable and proven to work under any conditions….if the user will simply lube it nice in a while. I haven’t cleaned an AR in over a year. My buddy cleans his when he orders a new case of ammo. And that’s the steel crap.

I get ya, yes a stock AR doesn't "need" anything, a lot of people still do though. They want to get every bit of accuracy they can out of it, moonz hit it on the head, gear nut gun. I am a gear nut too...

I love all my AR's, they do have a few more moving parts though.

They used to have problems, but most have been addressed over the years like I said. Anymore they are very dependable. Like you said, lube it and take even slight care of it and it shouldn't let you down.

Still not as dependable, in my opinion, as an AK. Doesn't need to be oiled, clean it? Maybe... Do I clean mine, HELL YA, but I guess you don't need to.

To each their own though. The reason there are so many types of guns out there is because we are all different too (some more than others ) so what is good for one isn't good for another.

 

[greg_r]

I did list other reasons... only reason I listed the numbers was more or less to state there are a ton more for a reason...

AR is not a peasants weapon in my opinion. The AR and M16 really have or had the same downfalls. A lot of those have been addressed over the years though.

Hey, why I said debatable, you have your belief and I have mine. You wont convince me otherwise and it very well seems I won't be convincing you lol.

Agree to disagree.

I had a typo in my statement. I intended to say the AK was a peasants weapon.

and yes, respectably agree to disagree

 

[greg_r]

AK is a better war gun. Its simple and effective. It gets a bad rap because of untrained bad guys not knowing how to shoot. The AR platform is a better gear nut gun. Both still need user that train on using them. But the AR needs more maintenance to use reliably. Accuracy hands down AR, but man size targets are not an issue with AK if you sight it in correctly and can shoot. But I did prefer a SKS until I got an M+M Ak.

This ^^^^^ almost exactly mimic my views.

 

[fatal-bert33]

My peasant 7.62 AR pistol.

 

[Think1st]

WASR is a workhorse and should be everyone's first AK lol. It's an AKM also, stamped receiver, but they just run, period.

You did adjust the sights for that shot right? Not a holdover?

A lot of people, believe it or not, don't understand the sights... I don't know how lol.

But yeah AK to 300 yards is doable - after that its really a rainbow shot...

Well, I had the front sight up on the upper chest of the silhouette to make the hits, and the impacts were in the middle torso area. Given that the B-29 targets are a good bit smaller than standard B-27 silhouettes, the actual drop was about 4"-6," but I wouldn't try to translate that into a real trajectory calculation. The front sight pretty well covered the whole target, so the precision of my placement of the sight tip on the target probably varied a good bit from shot to shot.

 

[Think1st]

Yup just went to Atlantic Firearms website - they actually carry them now - so that is a good sign. Also, yes forged trunion!! Excellent!!.

They need to work on the bolt carrier - that may mushroom - if it starts to get an AK buffer - not from Ebay but a reputable supplier. It will help.

View attachment 76302

Back to the Pioneer Arms, here is a pic from Atlantic:
View attachment 76303

The logo is not a circle 11 logo, that is just a pioneer arms one stating Radom, Poland. The serial number is all Pioneer so not a de-milled circle 11. So it is made in a pioneer Arms plant.

"All our AKM style firearms are build form 100% new parts produced in our plant in Radom, Poland."

From the Pioneer website here:

Pioneer Arms Corp

Once again, with all that said, forged parts DEFINETLY help and I hope it gives you years of service.

Great to hear they are listening to the masses!!

Isn't the mushrooming of the carrier tail from the hammer?

 

[Think1st]

You don’t have to tune an AR at all, unless you decide to use oddball weight ammo, or different gas system lengths. Use a carbine gas tube, get a carbine buffer and spring, and shoot 55 grain all day long. Easy. Pistol length? Or a 9 mm AR? Well..that’s a bit specialized, but….Use a heavier buffer, easy. Oddball heavy ammo? Run a heavier buffer….if you need to. It may not matter.



The AR is also durable and proven to work under any conditions….if the user will simply lube it nice in a while. I haven’t cleaned an AR in over a year. My buddy cleans his when he orders a new case of ammo. And that’s the steel crap. To your point, the AR gets a bad rap because of untrained or lazy guys not lubing the guns. It doesn’t really take “more maintenance” and tests have proven the AR is more resistant to mud and dirt.

All that said, I’d love to play with a newer modern AK.

When Obama triggered the first Big Panic after Sandyhook, I saw a whole bunch of new AR owners at the range every time I went, and invariably, they would be having serious stoppages as they tried to get them zeroed. Being the type who likes to help new gun owners so they can get onto the right path early, I would ask them if I could see their BCGs. Sure enough, they were dry. I'd give them a blast with a can of Rem Oil I keep on my range bag, work the bolt back and forth in the carrier, give a shot to the top of the extended charging handle, put it all back together and have the shooter cycle the action several times to coat everything properly. After that, they had no more problems.

 

[Visper]

Isn't the mushrooming of the carrier tail from the hammer?

The tail of the carrier does hit the hammer to reset it on the way back, but it mushrooms hitting the rear trunnion I thought, because the hammer is movable/spring the tail of the carrier just rides over it. In the old IO days that was their suggested fix to their soft metal...

If resetting the hammer mushroomed the tail of the carrier - holy jesus... not saying it isn't true but that would seems waaaaay to soft to me.

Now I'm going to have to do research lol. I just never had that issue with parts kit AKs from combloc countries.

 

[RACHGIER]

@ajole , you do have to admit that the M16/AR platform is a little bit high maintenance, seeing as they're the gun owners version of a Barbie AND every M16 issued also came with a cleaning kit after running dirty in the field started causing misfires and malfunctions. 1,000's of rounds on the line and stored in a box (vehicle, house, case, safe, etc) when not in use isn't the same as a 200 round firefight in muddy, swampy, sandy, or even normal terrain where "storage" = openly exposed to the elements. Mags get dropped and dirty and full of random crap from the terrain, especially if the dingus lubed their mag springs, then shoved in to the mag well.

I own both, obviously, and my AR's are the go to rifle to grab on the way out the door. My AK is next to the bed for bumps in the night...until I replace it with the suppressed AR type SBR's I plan to build. 😆

 

[ajole]

I agree, IF you start Barbie dolling them, things can get weird. And conditions are infinitely variable. Especially when Uncle Sams Misguided Children are doing God’s work at a high level of proficiency in the shittiest shitholes of the planet.

But for most of us, if you just put the right ammo in an OEM gun and lube them, you’re good.👍

That said….EVERYONE should at least try both. I actually like the Saiga, that’s why I’d like to shoot a modern variant, rather than some clabbered together mixed breed version of the original.

My Romanian Sporter 75 was all black plastic, I put her back in her own clothes.

 

[556]

Welcome to the Club

 

[Think1st]

I agree, IF you start Barbie dolling them, things can get weird. And conditions are infinitely variable. Especially when Uncle Sams Misguided Children are doing God’s work at a high level of proficiency in the shittiest shitholes of the planet.

But for most of us, if you just put the right ammo in an OEM gun and lube them, you’re good.👍

That said….EVERYONE should at least try both. I actually like the Saiga, that’s why I’d like to shoot a modern variant, rather than some clabbered together mixed breed version of the original.

My Romanian Sporter 75 was all black plastic, I put her back in her own clothes.

I actually took the "teakwood' off of my Wasr and put an Arsenal NATO-length synthetic buttstock on it and replaced the handguards with the shorter version of the Zhukov handguards. I like that rifle to be the bad weather rifle.

After having hadn't touched in years, except to change the furniture, I was very pleased to be able to hit clay pigeons at around 25 yards, standing off-hand, when I took it to a shooting party at a little ranch. It was the first time using that straight-arm c-clamp stance for me. I'd never bought into it until I learned how to do it the right way from the owner of RWMD when I was shooting my Redhawk at steel plates last year. It was one of those random discussions that comes up when you jabber with people at the range, and it was one of the best I've had from a learning perspective.

I've always considered myself to be faster and more precise with a pistol than with a rifle inside 25yds, but that c-clamp technique has helped me change that. And like I said, I hadn't shot that rifle in years--or any other rifle for that matter.

 

[DIRSUPop]

AK's ?? SAIGA's ?? Back in 2012, bought everyone except the 5.56
They were inexpensive then - until they were banned during the obama years.

In the AK vs AR discussion, as a two tour Vietnam veteran, I would
like to say that the M16's of the time did not like mud, muck, grit,
sand, etc., and were always needing to be cleaned. On the other
hand, the AK's worked ...and worked! It wasn't unusual for a
patrol to go out and return with AK's and all the ammo they were
able to strip off the NVA or VC. Their M16's were left left in their
hooch. Later in the war, M16's started arriving that were set for
3 round burst fire. Prior to that, 1 shot more than often wounded
than killed; whereas, the AK 7.62x39 was a one shot kill round.

 

[ajole]

Huh. Never knew there were three round burst limiters prior to the ‘80’s. Are you sure about that?

Just want to point out…the guys with M16’s were apparently killing enough guys with AK’s to brag about it….so apparently the M16 worked just fine….why would they swap out for the weapon that lost?
NONE of the Vietnam vets I served with preferred Ak’s nor M14’s.

 

[moona11]

Here we go.

 

[Visper]

To be fair, wasn't the SKS more or less the weapon of choice during the Vietnam war? I'm sure you had AKs but I always thought the SKS was the predominant NVA weapon.

As for the M16, I believe m16a2 in like 81-82, was the first to offer 3 round burst along with semi-auto.

 

[RACHGIER]

To be fair, wasn't the SKS more or less the weapon of choice during the Vietnam war? I'm sure you had AKs but I always thought the SKS was the predominant NVA weapon.

As for the M16, I believe m16a2 in like 81-82, was the first to offer 3 round burst along with semi-auto.

Spot on.

Type 56's, AKM's, AK47's, and SKS's; but it was an even mix of AK pattern to SKS patterned rifles. Location and supplier determined who got what.

A2 went to the USMC in '83 and Army in '86 to conserve ammo after all the "covering fire" (spray and pray) in Vietnam and they went back to FA with the A4 because 3-round burst sucks. Where's the A3 you ask? Talk to the Navy. They ordered A2's with A1 FCG's because 3-round burst sucks donkey dong... The A4 introduced the flat top upper with removable carry handle and an FA FCG ~insert heavenly music here~ and thank farkle for that because I got to use the A2 in boot and SOI and I can say, without hesitation, 3-round burst sucks... I joined in '96, hit the fleet in '97, and I loved my FA A4.