Now THIS i have abit of problem with

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by tallbump, Aug 20, 2014.

  1. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    I am sure many of you have heard about this my now


    I’m a cop. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t challenge me.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/

    It's an editorial by

    He said a lot of good stuff, and I agree with almost everything he says.

    Things like

    But he's catching a lot of flack right now, and I agree. Here's the part that I have a problem with.

    Uhm, excuse me? Let me paste that again. The part I don't agree with.

    Uhm...to taht, I give Mr. Dutta a big SCREW YOU.

    MAYBE, maybe, the way he wrote this isn't what he really meant. But he wrote it.

    He seems to be implying that it is ok for a police officer to use violence because someone argues or got belligerent with them. That's complete BS and cannot be condoned. This police officer mentality of do what I tell you to do or else stuff has got to stop.

    NOW, if there is an actual threat, like, say getting punched in the face ot the point that your frigging occipital lobe is fractured, by all means, fire away. I am 100% ok with defense.

    But to say a baton strike, paperer spray, tazer and ESPECIALLY a gun shot is ok becuase the suspect told the officer he was going to report him. Yeah, I have a problem with that.

    THIS is what should be happening....as he said in his article

     
  2. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Sounds more like he expects the suspect to escalate once they being being uncooperative and belligerent.

    Psychologically speaking, he's not wrong. Once your brain gets into an oppositional mode it ramps into anger and thense to physicality very quickly. That's just how we work. But, if the suspect (we) can control our 100% natural impulse to opposition, we stand a much greater chance of interrupting the psychological cycle that leads to physicality.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     

  3. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    And if hat is what he meant, I get that.

    Again, it's what he said I have a problem with. He took the time to write this thing out, he could have taken a few more seconds to be a bit more clear.


    I'll even give him this possibility. Maybe he did, and they either edited it before publishing it, or perhaps made him edit it to be shorter and had to take something out.

    But the words themselves, they look bad.


    My biggest problem with it is that it gives folks the impression that police officers have this superiority complex. This is not good, especially with strained relations and tensions already.
     
  4. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Even if he meant exactly what he wrote, it's still true. Assuming that he wrote exactly what he meant, I have a huge problem with it from a Civil Liberties view. However, even if the cop is a ego-inflated, chest-thumping, prick the best way to keep from getting tased is to go along with his ego and "yes sir, no sir" him.

    So, honestly, regardless of which way the officer in question meant it, it's still true. No matter if the cop is corrupt or as honest as the day is long, if you don't want to get hurt, don't challenge the cop. It's pretty simple advice: Don't stick your finger in a light socket, don't jam your hand in the fan belt.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  5. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    I see it as a bit of hyperbole, exaggeration for the rhetorical effect. He boiled it down to a pretty simple statement.

    He could have just as easily said, "Don't be a prick, and we won't be ass holes." Even if he had, you probably would have had an issue with THAT statement as well. You're taking offense to it because you want to be offended and not looking at the underlying message he was trying to convey. He prefaced the statement you don't like with the statement you did agree with but posted last.

    You aren't the only one I know who took offense to that statement either, but after talking to them about it they could see more where he was coming from.
     
  6. Back2School

    Back2School Member

    1,190
    0
    Honestly, I think Tall took it very well.

    Read the responses on that page if you think Tall's take was even remotely unfair. His view is very balanced and definitely NOT anti-cop or antagonistic. It is not pro cop either, but a very balanced view saying "man this sounds really bad and I have an issue with this specific section right here", the rest I am ok with.

    There are loons that are extreme on that page. Tall was not.
     
  7. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    Thanks Back...

    Like I said, I am ok with the general gist. I am ok with the hyperbole aspect.

    But he flat out said in words that it is ok for a police officer to use a taser, baton, pepoer spray or a firearm to deal with someone who has a bad attitude. that is a bit too extreme.

    Again, hear are his words I have a problem with. Remember , these are HIS words.

    "if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary,"

    Now, to be fair, he finishes that with "and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me."

    Now, if you are approaching an officer in a threatening manner, you deserve some type of force to be used against you. But if you call the officer names, you don't deserve to be met with physical force.

    If someone out in the public is calling me names, threatening to sue met, etc..I have no right to take a physical action against them. I would probably end of , deservedly, in jail if I did. An officer has no right to do that either. In fact, personally, I'll go one step further and say an officer has LESS right to resort to physical action over name calling and such, as they are expected to deal with that as part of their duty.

    See, I specifically addressed that. I don't have a problem with the idea of "Don't be a prick, and we won't be ass holes."

    I actually like the idea. In fact, I do that very something when dealing iwth the opposing side here in the legal matters I deal with. I play nice with the other side and try to negotiate.
    If you are speeding, and you get pulled over for speeding, you have no reason to be a jerk to the officer to pull you over. And if you are a jerk to him, then you deserve to be treated like a jerk.
    HOWEVER, you don't deserve to get tazed, pepper sprayed or shot for acting like a jerk, which is what he said in his words.

    Actually, I am a little offended that you tried so say why I was offended Rach. I was very clear with the exact part of the statement I had a problem with and addressed that specifically.

    Kirk, I agree with what your saying. I agree 100% and I get that was the gist of the article. Again, though, the wording he chose to use implies that it is OK with the police to use force when you are acting up. And that, and only that, is what I have a problem with.
     
  8. Rerun

    Rerun Member

    8,114
    2,516
    I believe that one day, YOU may decide to buck whatever the LEO has said and will become the next statistic.

    What is so difficult about following the LEO's instructions?

    You can always file a complaint/lawsuit/inform the newspapers AFTER you survive the encounter.

    Going against what the LEO says could be the last silly thing YOU do in this life.

    imo.

    eldar
     
  9. bluharley

    bluharley Member

    If I do something wrong, I deserve what I get, it's not the cops fault I effed up. They don't get any resistance from me.
     
  10. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    See I just don't see him saying he's okay with the use of excessive force. Like I said, to me, it's hyperbole. Especially by admitting there are rogue cops out there who act like pricks because they want to, not because they can.

    I've dealt with one myself after the school called CPS on us. My kid went to school and the nurse saw he had a black eye and she asked him if he got the black eye because I hit him. He wouldn't answer so she called CPS and they showed up with 3 cops and 2 CPS workers to take all of my kids. I was told to sign a blank piece of notebook paper for the CPS worker to admit I hit the kid and to promise never to use corporal punishment on any of them ever again. I refused to sign it and the cop told me that if I didn't sign the paper he was going to knock me on my ass, drag me down the stairs, and throw me in his cruiser. In damn near that exact language. I laughed at him and told him he didn't have it in him. He stepped back, put his hand on his weapon, and ordered me to the ground in my own kitchen in front of all of my children. I looked right over to the Sergeant, who knows me from the fire department and my job working security and happens to be good friends with my woman, and told him flat out, "Sarge, you better get your boy because you know good and damn well that you three ain't gonna get it." Then I turned and looked at him and said, "You're in MY home, threatening ME in front of MY kids with your g* d* hand on your gun. You better pack a lunch and call for back up because I'm gonna be hungry when this is all said and done." I was calm when I said it, Sarge shut the whole thing down immediately, and ordered the officer outside. Shortly thereafter they left without me signing papers and with my kids still sitting on my couch playing video games. After it was all said and done I was cleared because my clumsy ass kid fell out of the top bunk horsing around and smacked his face off every rung of the ladder on the way down...AGAIN. It's happened twice. The first time I told them to f* off and come back with a warrant. The second time it went like this.

    Was I wrong for escalating? Abso-friggin-lutely! All I saw was the officer reach for his weapon putting my children in the line of fire and I INSTANTLY kicked in to combat mode. They came in to my house uninvited and without a warrant and threatened my freedom and my life, but in hind sight I was dead ass wrong.

    I apologize if you are offended with what I said, but lately all I see from you is judging the cops for being bad. My ambulance has bullet proof vests on it for the crew, and I've personally had to strap one on and run EMS at a mass casualty shooting. People can Monday morning quarterback these things to death, but unless you were in the shoes of the officer involved you have no idea what actually happened, even after the investigations and trials are over.
     
  11. Back2School

    Back2School Member

    1,190
    0
    I hope that is not one sided.

    If the cops eff up and do a no knock raid on the wrong house, and every one of them gets shot, its on them too, right? They get what they deserve?

    I dont want to see cops punished ( and in this case I came out real early in defending the officer - if the kid assaulted him and tried to take his gun there is no question the officer was 100% justified) but again equal force should be applied.

    If I say stupid things, the cops can say stupid things back. You dont get to shoot me for staying stupid things.
    If I touch a cop, I have no problem with them shooting me.

    Violent act=violence response
    Not following an "order" is not a violent act. It actually is a non-violent act used in many resistance movements.
     
  12. bluharley

    bluharley Member

    Well, I don't have kids, or a wife, all I got is my cat. So I can't imagine being in that kind of situation. The only time I had a cop looking for trouble was when I was driving OTR and a state cop in Kentucky was looking for a problem, but my books were in order and he just let me off with a warning, going 55mph in a 50, guess he was bored. I know there are cops like that, Thankfully I don't attract their attention.
     
  13. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    Really? I have never said that I wouldn't cooperate. I have posted numerous times about the various pleasant experiences in my dealings with officers, and in fact have gotten off easier than I deserved on more than one occasion.

    Again, my point is there is a difference between having an attitude with an officer and committing an action that puts the officer in a situation where he felt he was in danger and had to take action to defend himself.

    Again, average Joe citizen can't resort to violence just becuase someone pissed them off, and an officer does not have that right either.


    Rach, come on, I started that whole thread and have kept it updated about the officer's good deeds. I have pretty much stayed out of the St Louis deal becuase i was waiting for the whole story to come out before I passed judgement. The more I follow it, the more I believe the officer did the right thing.

    AGAIN, in this article, the officer said if you give me a hrd time I will throw you to the ground, tase you, pepper spray you, hit you with a baton or shoot you. I mean, he didn't say that. But he did say that is ok.

    Those were his words.

    "if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary,"
     
  14. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member

    Only in America can people bit*h about being roughed up for acting like azzholes to cops.....
     
  15. Back2School

    Back2School Member

    1,190
    0
    After reading some of the other responses on here, I am curious about one thing.

    How many have escalated (like Rachgier said he did) in any interaction with anyone (let alone a cop) in their adult (over 18) life?

    It seems to me those who were prone to violence, anger and aggression in their younger days are the ones who support the officers right to back anyone down who is not "showing the appropriate level of respect".

    I don't mouth off to anyone, not even an officer who is wrong. This is wrong to do to anyone - not just a cop. I havent raised a hand in anger since I was a kid. The closest I came was when my step daughters husband said he was "gonna beat the Sh!t outta her" and I simply charged in between the 2 and backed him down when he moved towards her. I didnt need to say anything or even hit him. He knew he was wrong so he backed down even though he would have taken me easily. I could have escalated it, but I didnt. Cooler heads prevail.

    It just seems funny that those who have been aggressive in their lives seem to assume everyone else will act that way as well.
     
  16. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    He also said he has withstood a withering barrage of those very insults multiple times and was able to diffuse the situation without escalation on most occasions.

    You also started the good guys thread AFTER catching flak for your views in the other thread about the kids with the air rifle, but that's neither here nor there.
     
  17. Rachgier

    Rachgier Administrator Staff Member

    I didn't get in to fights as a kid. I was always the bookwormy quiet and reserved kid who avoided conflict and learned how to use common sense and my words to win fights. Originally I wanted to be a Catholic Priest until a scandal broke out in my church. Then I decided I wanted to be a professional chef until junior year of high school when I decided to join the Marines for the GI Bill and a "free" career. Then in boot I went from 5'11" and a soft 213# to a 6'3" solid 180# kid who realized he was pretty good at fighting. Then I went in to combat and amid being scared sh*tless I learned to love the rush I got. After that bar fights were like Pringles to me because once you pop you can't stop.

    Now, after its all said and done, I have kids, I'm older and wiser, I know that I have too much to lose, and my family needs me. I would rather command respect instead of demand it, but if someone pushes me to the point where they threaten my life or the lives of my family, I will put them down with extreme prejudice.
     
  18. Rerun

    Rerun Member

    8,114
    2,516
    I apologize.

    I guess it was the indignation that came through your writing that led me astray.

    Many LEO's patrol as single entity's and they want to come home in one piece after work just like the rest of us do. They know that should they cry for help, all available LEO's will respond with all possible speed.

    Except, in many cases, that speed may be three or five minutes too long. This is why the LEO would prefer to err in his favor instead of ending up in a Morgue Wagon.

    Sto lat!

    eldar
     
  19. mej24

    mej24 Member

    Rach, I don't necessarily believe you were wrong. Maybe could have been more tactful in your response, but I probably would have reacted likewise.
    You were in your home, acting civil towards people who wanted you to be guilty, and from what you wrote, you were threatened first.
    My brother-in-law and I are built about the same. He had been pulled over several times in one week, by the same officer, for driving with revoked license.
    One night we had just left my father-in-laws house and a patrol car immediately pulled behind me. He had been sitting across the road. He followed me as I drove a 6 mile loop around town. I wanted to see how far he would follow me.
    When I signaled to turn into my drive way, he lit me up. Now my drive is connected to a parking lot and as soon as I cleared the road, I turned the car of and turned on my flashers.
    He was unable to Completly pull in behind me and yelled at me from his car to pull forward. He could have pulled of to the side of the road, but didn't.
    I refused to restart my car ( in a previous stop, a friend if mine restarted his car to clear a drive way he was blocking and he was ticketed for attempting to flee!)
    After getting out of the road, he approached my car and asked for id and registration. I refused and asked why I was stopped. He unsnapped his weapon and taking a step back asked me what my attitude problem was. I asked why he had been waiting on me and then followed me for over 6 miles before making a stop.
    He nor I raised our voices, but he was visibly agitated at me. He said I had a tag light out to which I responded that it took him 10+ minutes to stop me for that.
    Walking of he said to just get the damned thing fixed. Never did give him my id or registration.
    I felt that we had been targeted and harrased and did report that to my landlord at the time who happened to be a Sargent on the local PD.
    Was I wrong? Maybe, but I felt harrased and would do the same again.
    Did I deserve to be tassered or pepper sprayed? Hell no. Looking back the officer handled it very well considering my attitude, but on the other hand he knew exactly who we where before he even got behind us



    The most effective way to stop a shooter is to shoot back.
     
  20. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member


    Lol..... I've been in very few fights my whole life..... I can count them on one hand... I've probably de escalated a situation at least three times as often.
    You guys are still hung up on the idea that resisting arrest is acceptable if the person doesn't "feel" it's warranted....I believe the point we've made, and still stands, is if you act like a retarded jackass, you're getting what's coming to you..... Plain and simple. Has jack squat to do about "aggressive types".