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Buffalo Bore makes what they call 40+P. No such classification in the SAAMI specs. Buffalo Bore warns about using their 40+P could do a KB in pistols without fully supported chambers. Specifically Glocks in 40. They may make something they call 10+P
 

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Anyone know of a mfg of +P 100 ammo??? Wondering since the HI Point 10 mm carbine is +P rated.
Like TNT says, there's no SAAMI spec for 10mm +P and, therefore, no guns rated for it. 10mm guns are rated to SAAMI max pressure for 10mm, 37,500 PSI. I would NEVER knowingly put a cartridge in my gun which generates more pressure than it is rated for and, in the strongest possible terms, I recommend no one else does either.

I can't make you do anything but I'm saying this is a bad idea and I don't think you (or anyone) should do it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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That whole "all of our guns are built to withstand +p" is kind of hyperbole when it comes to the 10mm Auto. As you have read, there is no such thing as +p 10mm Auto ammunition. I've only been loading for, and shooting with a 10mm G20 for going on 6 years now? So there are much more experienced folks out there who will tell you the same.

Run your 10mm as the bad ass hand cannon Jeff Cooper designed it to be...

Although for the carbine, we'll start calling it a shoulder-fired cannon.
 

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That whole "all of our guns are built to withstand +p" is kind of hyperbole when it comes to the 10mm Auto. As you have read, there is no such thing as +p 10mm Auto ammunition. I've only been loading for, and shooting with a 10mm G20 for going on 6 years now?

Run your 10mm as the bad ass hand cannon Jeff Cooper designed it to be...

Although for the carbine, we'll start calling it a shoulder-fired cannon.
?? G20 is a Pistol correct - Glock 20??? Is the cylinder fully supporting the case?? I understand what you'all are saying about SAAMI specs.

From what I can tell from looking for 10mm ammo to buy and the little info provided by the mfg's most 10mm ammo is under loaded based on the FBI Fear factor. There seems to be a little loaded to higher velocity then the standard rounds. So it appears there is at least some room to reach full SAMMI specs - not counting hand loads! Anyone know off hand what pressure Buffalo Bore loads it's +P 10mm to??

Not necessarily arguing but there was no 9mm +P or 45ACP +P or ++P for that matter to begin with - - - - then there it was and then there were SAAMI Spec's for them.

I'm not necessarily looking to blow up any rifle or pistol in my face. I also know that there were a lot of people who were afraid of and could not learn to handle the 10mm pistol when it came out - like there were a lot of people who could not handle the 40 S&W and then when all there were was .38 special some people were afraid of .357 magnums so ammo mfg's started loading below the max SAMMI Spec's.

I'm not sure what Hi Point bases it's statement that it's Carbines & Possibly?? it's pistols are +P rated. I would suspect they did some testing in that area to cover their butt! Since there seems to be only one mfg. who is loading to what it calls +P 10mm it is almost a moot point...The cheapest 10mm I could find was around $1.00 a round. That bruises my Scottish Ancestry wallet big time. I picked up 2 boxes - 100 rds total - 180 grn FMJ. It won't take long to shoot that up then I'll have to get a set of dies and start reloading just to get the price down! All within SAMMI spec's of course.
 

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As far as I know the Gen4 and Gen5 support the case better than the Gen3's, 2's, 1's in 9 and 40. 10? I have no clue.

All mine are 4's or 5's. No 10mm's. I checked them with loaded cases. The 40, and the 10 can bulge and burst if they are loaded too hot, or aren't a fully supported chamber. YouTube ought to have the info you seek.
 

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So you're obviously planning on ignoring all the information given to you thus far. There is no such thing as +p 10mm Auto.

Buffalo Bore does not make +p 10mm Auto ammunition. They make "Heavy" ammo which is considered full (SAAMI spec) power. A simple trip to their website would have given you this:

The Buffalo Bore Heavy 10MM ammo is the result of many years of customers requests that we produce several such loads for the 10MM.

These loads bring out the full potential of the 10MM but operate at standard pressures and as such, are safe to use in any standard 10MM pistol. Please don't phone us and ask if these loads are safe in your 10MM - THEY ARE SAFE--provided your 10MM is a normal operating pistol in good condition.

We are using flash-suppressed powders so your vision will not be materially affected should you be required to drop the hammer in low light.

If you are firing this 10MM ammo from an autoloader and experience high extreme spreads in velocity, it is not the ammo. Here is why and how to remedy the situation.

FULL POWER 10MM AMMO

Full power 10MM ammo has always generated enough recoil and pressure to require a pretty stiff recoil spring in your handgun - this, of course, depends on several variables such as your slide weight, etc. When the cartridge fires, it generates enough pressure/recoil to prematurely open your breech face in some guns. When this happens, the opening breech face has an effect on the burn rate of the powder. This can result in some fairly high extreme spreads in velocity. If you are experiencing extreme velocity spreads of more than 50 fps, simply install a stiffer recoil spring.
So... again...stop chasing unicorns and listen to the people who have experience with this ammunition. With the HP line of firearms being direct blowback, it is inadvisable to shoot "heavy" or full power 10mm Auto.
 
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?? G20 is a Pistol correct - Glock 20??? Is the cylinder fully supporting the case?? I understand what you'all are saying about SAAMI specs.

From what I can tell from looking for 10mm ammo to buy and the little info provided by the mfg's most 10mm ammo is under loaded based on the FBI Fear factor. There seems to be a little loaded to higher velocity then the standard rounds. So it appears there is at least some room to reach full SAMMI specs - not counting hand loads! Anyone know off hand what pressure Buffalo Bore loads it's +P 10mm to??

Not necessarily arguing but there was no 9mm +P or 45ACP +P or ++P for that matter to begin with - - - - then there it was and then there were SAAMI Spec's for them.

I'm not necessarily looking to blow up any rifle or pistol in my face. I also know that there were a lot of people who were afraid of and could not learn to handle the 10mm pistol when it came out - like there were a lot of people who could not handle the 40 S&W and then when all there were was .38 special some people were afraid of .357 magnums so ammo mfg's started loading below the max SAMMI Spec's.

I'm not sure what Hi Point bases it's statement that it's Carbines & Possibly?? it's pistols are +P rated. I would suspect they did some testing in that area to cover their butt! Since there seems to be only one mfg. who is loading to what it calls +P 10mm it is almost a moot point...The cheapest 10mm I could find was around $1.00 a round. That bruises my Scottish Ancestry wallet big time. I picked up 2 boxes - 100 rds total - 180 grn FMJ. It won't take long to shoot that up then I'll have to get a set of dies and start reloading just to get the price down! All within SAMMI spec's of course.
I just noted I said cylinder rather barrel in asking about fully supported cases. I suspect most would understand what I was asking. Go ahead and laugh - I did - DUH!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
So you're obviously planning on ignoring all the information given to you thus far. There is no such thing as +p 10mm Auto.

Buffalo Bore does not make +p 10mm Auto ammunition. They make "Heavy" ammo which is considered full (SAAMI spec) power. A simple trip to their website would have given you this:



So... again...stop chasing unicorns and listen to the people who have experience with this ammunition. With the HP line of firearms being direct blowback, it is inadvisable to shoot "heavy" or full power 10mm Auto.
Well at least I did glean some usefull information from you even though you are pretty much a pompass ass and a complete know it all! I see you are an Administrator - I'm sure you know more about this caliber and these rifles then I do since I just bought one. But I generally choose not to pay a lot of attention to people who Spout what essentially is "How Dare You Not DO What I Say"! Which what is essentially what you just did. You obviously didn't realize I was entering into "conversation". I did actually look up Buffalo Bore and did in fact not find +P and actually found "Heavy" bullets and heavy loads. I also ask them if they ever did make +P and/or planned to make it in the future. I'm curious of what their answers will be - if they respond. I see in the insert you have provided that Buffalo says their ammo including "Heavy" loads are safe in pistols. Are you saying Hi Point Rifles are not as strong as their Pistols with ammo meeting SAMMI specs??
As far as I know the Gen4 and Gen5 support the case better than the Gen3's, 2's, 1's in 9 and 40. 10? I have no clue.

All mine are 4's or 5's. No 10mm's. I checked them with loaded cases. The 40, and the 10 can bulge and burst if they are loaded too hot, or aren't a fully supported chamber. YouTube ought to have the info you seek.
Thanks.
 

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Well at least I did glean some usefull information from you even though you are pretty much a pompass ass and a complete know it all! I see you are an Administrator - I'm sure you know more about this caliber and these rifles then I do since I just bought one. But I generally choose not to pay a lot of attention to people who Spout what essentially is "How Dare You Not DO What I Say"! Which what is essentially what you just did. You obviously didn't realize I was entering into "conversation". I did actually look up Buffalo Bore and did in fact not find +P and actually found "Heavy" bullets and heavy loads. I also ask them if they ever did make +P and/or planned to make it in the future. I'm curious of what their answers will be - if they respond. I see in the insert you have provided that Buffalo says their ammo including "Heavy" loads are safe in pistols. Are you saying Hi Point Rifles are not as strong as their Pistols with ammo meeting SAMMI specs??
Rachgier -
Some how I included another post before finishing this one - no way to edit it as I can see. But it did remind me that you didn't bother to answer my question on G20 pistol's. No matter.
 

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Well at least I did glean some usefull information from you even though you are pretty much a pompass ass and a complete know it all! I see you are an Administrator - I'm sure you know more about this caliber and these rifles then I do since I just bought one. But I generally choose not to pay a lot of attention to people who Spout what essentially is "How Dare You Not DO What I Say"! Which what is essentially what you just did. You obviously didn't realize I was entering into "conversation". I did actually look up Buffalo Bore and did in fact not find +P and actually found "Heavy" bullets and heavy loads. I also ask them if they ever did make +P and/or planned to make it in the future. I'm curious of what their answers will be - if they respond. I see in the insert you have provided that Buffalo says their ammo including "Heavy" loads are safe in pistols. Are you saying Hi Point Rifles are not as strong as their Pistols with ammo meeting SAMMI specs??

Thanks.
Well considering the fact that HP doesn't make a 10mm handgun, the carbine is all you have to go by. Second of all if you read the quoted material directly from BB they advise increasing the strength of the recoil springs in auto loading handguns that are suffering from erratic velocity due to the breech opening prematurely from the increased blow back pressure. HP firearms are those firearms. They are true inertially damped blow back operated actions, not locked breech systems. So while your Glocks, Colts, EAA's, etc use a short recoil locking breech your HP has a heavy ass slide and a recoil spring holding it closed. One of the aftermarket "extra power" recoil springs for the other carbines being sold by a crappy manufacturer was recalled for actually causing full auto runaways.

So you're chasing +P 10mm ammo despite several people telling you it doesn't exist and your own inability to find it.

You're ignoring the ammunition manufacturer's own advice to use stiffer recoil springs due to their Full Power per spec ammo causing issues in certain types of firearms and actions.

Now we'll throw in the complete lack of aftermarket internals and the fact that one of the few manufacturers of said internal parts kits is shady, sells dangerous junk, and WAS a member of this forum until he refused to honor his own warranty on the springs that turned out were just from the local hardware store (ballpoint pen springs in the case of the trigger/sere) and were never properly measured in comparison to the ratings of the factory springs.


So, yeah. I'm a bit of a dick when it comes to the potentially unsafe operation of a firearm, regardless of manufacturer. Too many years dealing with the devastation as both a Marine and Firefighter/Medic.

Rachgier -
Some how I included another post before finishing this one - no way to edit it as I can see. But it did remind me that you didn't bother to answer my question on G20 pistol's. No matter.
Yes, the G20 is a 10mm. I assumed that was directly implied and understood due to your question about 10mm ammunition...
 

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So you're obviously planning on ignoring all the information given to you thus far.
But you said “Run your 10mm as the bad ass hand cannon Jeff Cooper designed it to be...“

Sounds like you told him to do what he wanted, even though you also told him it wasn’t smart.
 

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But you said “Run your 10mm as the bad ass hand cannon Jeff Cooper designed it to be...“

Sounds like you told him to do what he wanted, even though you also told him it wasn’t smart.
Run it as intended, not looking for mythical higher pressure/over pressure rounds. Operate it in a safe manner. Understand the limits and limitations of both the round and firearm. You know, that whole safe and responsible gun owner thing? Unless your cool with disseminating incorrect and potentially dangerous information.... which we both know you say you're not, based on certain Dark Room conversations.
 

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Run it as intended, not looking for mythical higher pressure/over pressure rounds. Operate it in a safe manner. Understand the limits and limitations of both the round and firearm. You know, that whole safe and responsible gun owner thing? Unless your cool with disseminating incorrect and potentially dangerous information.... which we both know you say you're not, based on certain Dark Room conversations.
I'm not real sure you can actually read or just not understand what you read. I'm not "Chasing" +P 10MM. There is a difference. I'm curious and looking for reasonable feed back. I ask Buffalo if they ever mfg 10mm +P and if they did were they going to mfg it again. If the answer is no I never did that and I don't plan to answers that question reasonably. But if they say they had a load they pushed to the max SAMMI and called it +P for marketing reasons because all the "Normal" 10mm is not loaded to max SAMMI then that may be interesting. You assume I am looking for "mythical" 10 MM Pressures. That is no where near what I am doing. By the way I did read the full boat reference where Buffalo advised that "IF" you are having issues go to heavier springs. They do explain why in a reasonable manner - something you did in a lesser then reasonable manner. Although you did add some interesting info about aftermarket parts - still with a you shudda known attitude. Passing on information about safety is a very good thing and welcomed when it is presented a reasonable manner. Think about it - when someone barks at you do you just leap to accept what they are saying as truth - I highly doubt it. As I said before you know more then I do about this round and this carbine - hence my reaching out for conversations about both the gun and the ammo. By the way I know all about safety. I spent 30+ years as a Wildland Fire Fighter as well as 12+ years as a Federal, Certified, gun toting Law Enforcement Officer. A lot of people have experiences - I learned that barking at people tended to stiffen them up and make them less then cooperative - while talking reasonably generally made it easier to get close to them.
 

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Not necessarily arguing but there was no 9mm +P or 45ACP +P or ++P for that matter to begin with - - - - then there it was and then there were SAAMI Spec's for them.
Kinda sorta, and no.

Yes, 9mm +P and .45ACP +P came about after the initial cartridges, both of which pre-date World War One. The way that 9mm, .45ACP, .38 Special, and several other cartridges got a SAAMI +P designation is that some company made a spec for it and paid SAAMI a huge amount of money to certify the spec. They submitted some highly detailed drawings of the cartridge and chamber, and proposed pressure specs, and then opened up their wallets ...very very wide.

Your other assertion is wrong. You wrote "++P" I guessing you meant "+P+" here. But there is no SAAMI specification for +P+.

+P is a SAAMI specification for for a cartridge which exceeds maximum pressure for the SAAMI spec for the standard pressure cartridge. The max pressure for +P for cartridges that SAAMI has issued a +P specification for (a pretty unusual thing), is usually around 10% over-pressure. For example, SAAMI rates max pressure for a standard pressure 9mm at 35,000 PSI and +P to be max 38,500, so a "9mm +P" cartridge made to SAAMI spec might be anywhere from 35,001 to 38,500.

SAAMI does not have +P+ specs. What that means is that the manufacturer of the cartridge claims that it produces pressures of over that of SAAMI max for a +P cartridge. How much over? Don't know unless the manufacturer specifically tells you. It might be 10% over the already over-pressure rating or it might be 50%. In any case SAAMI doesn't rate +P+ and I've only seen one handgun ever that claimed to be safe for +P+. It was an over-built Ruger that has since been discontinued (probably for safety reasons).

So, if you really really want a 10mm +P spec from SAAMI, then brush up on your cartridge engineering, particularly internal ballistics and pressure curves, and then break into the kids piggy bank 'cuz it's gonna cost you a ton.

To reiterate, never never ever put ammunition in your gun which claims to generate pressure levels which exceed what your gun is rated for. That means if your gun isn't rated for +P then don't put +P ammunition in it. If the caliber your gun is chambered in does not have a SAAMI +P specification then don't put ammunition in it which claims to be +P. Never put any ammunition in your gun which claims to be +P+.

Now, I'm not the "ammunition police" and I can't force anyone to do anything. But I do know people who's .380ACP chambered guns have "spontaneously disassembled" because they used ammo that the manufacturer said was ".380 ACP +P."

In the end, threads like these kind of amuse me. Lots of people jump in and write "don't use +P if your gun isn't rated for it" but you know that eventually, much like July 4th., not everyone will have the same number of fingers they started the day with.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Interesting data point on the Demolition Ranch Youtube. He shoots a bunch of ballistic gel torsos, and includes the HP 10 mm carbine.

It penetrates 5 torsos, and keeps going. Without the vests. About 8:18 in the video.
Yeah, I know there’s lots of stupid in there. But it’s nice to know the thing penetrates close to 45 inches of gel....


 

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Kinda sorta, and no.

Yes, 9mm +P and .45ACP +P came about after the initial cartridges, both of which pre-date World War One. The way that 9mm, .45ACP, .38 Special, and several other cartridges got a SAAMI +P designation is that some company made a spec for it and paid SAAMI a huge amount of money to certify the spec. They submitted some highly detailed drawings of the cartridge and chamber, and proposed pressure specs, and then opened up their wallets ...very very wide.

Your other assertion is wrong. You wrote "++P" I guessing you meant "+P+" here. But there is no SAAMI specification for +P+.

+P is a SAAMI specification for for a cartridge which exceeds maximum pressure for the SAAMI spec for the standard pressure cartridge. The max pressure for +P for cartridges that SAAMI has issued a +P specification for (a pretty unusual thing), is usually around 10% over-pressure. For example, SAAMI rates max pressure for a standard pressure 9mm at 35,000 PSI and +P to be max 38,500, so a "9mm +P" cartridge made to SAAMI spec might be anywhere from 35,001 to 38,500.

SAAMI does not have +P+ specs. What that means is that the manufacturer of the cartridge claims that it produces pressures of over that of SAAMI max for a +P cartridge. How much over? Don't know unless the manufacturer specifically tells you. It might be 10% over the already over-pressure rating or it might be 50%. In any case SAAMI doesn't rate +P+ and I've only seen one handgun ever that claimed to be safe for +P+. It was an over-built Ruger that has since been discontinued (probably for safety reasons).

So, if you really really want a 10mm +P spec from SAAMI, then brush up on your cartridge engineering, particularly internal ballistics and pressure curves, and then break into the kids piggy bank 'cuz it's gonna cost you a ton.

To reiterate, never never ever put ammunition in your gun which claims to generate pressure levels which exceed what your gun is rated for. That means if your gun isn't rated for +P then don't put +P ammunition in it. If the caliber your gun is chambered in does not have a SAAMI +P specification then don't put ammunition in it which claims to be +P. Never put any ammunition in your gun which claims to be +P+.

Now, I'm not the "ammunition police" and I can't force anyone to do anything. But I do know people who's .380ACP chambered guns have "spontaneously disassembled" because they used ammo that the manufacturer said was ".380 ACP +P."

In the end, threads like these kind of amuse me. Lots of people jump in and write "don't use +P if you're gun isn't rated for it" but you know that eventually, much like July 4th., not everyone will have the same number of fingers they started the day with.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Interesting - thanks and I do understand how +P gets rated. ++P or +P+ doesn't really matter to me - I just remember seeing it offered somewhere down the line. I'll point out again - Just because I ask a question about 10 mm +P ammo because it appeared the 10 MM Carbine I just bought was +P Rated by the Factory - because All HI Point Carbines are +P rated doesn't mean I am on a Quest to push 10mm ammo to +P pressures. I was simply asking where I could find +P 10mm ammo. It is clear - for now and maybe the duration that there is no +P rated 10 mm ammo. There was such a rabid response to there being no such thing as 10mm +P I couldn't help but point out that at one time there was no +P 9mm or +P 45 ACP - until someone came up with it - then it was a common loading. I agree it is very unwise to stuff higher +P ammo into any gun that is not rated as +P by the factory that built it. I actually didn't know that any .380 was loaded to +Pressures. Are you talking about .380 pistols in general "disassembling themselves" or specific Hi Point pistols/carbines????? I've had several .380's but just never had much faith in the caliber - even the Hornaday specific loading's. Currently there are so many small full bore 9mm carry pistols available it just doesn't make any sense for me to carry a 9mm short - but that is just me. But I am cognizant of the fact that a .380 is better then nothing if/when needed. Now that 10mm is getting popular again and there are so many mfg's making pistol's for that round I 'll be curious if some day in the future someone decides to "improve" on the current factory loading's. Might be interesting I suspect they might be called 10 MM Magnum!
 
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