This is, at best, a misleading statement. At worst, it is flat out wrong. No one publishes what their +P+ pressures are. We do not know if they exceed a "proof" cartridge or not. They might or they might not.
"A +P+ load is X percent higher than a +P load. SAAMI does not publish +P+ loads and therefore they are developed by each ammunition manufacturer. Again +P+ does not exceed the proof round.
Let's use 9mm as an example. Standard pressure SAAMI loads are 35,000 PSI while +P pressure is 38,500. Load data for +P+ is no specified by SAAMI, but the proof round value is 45,700 PSI. By deductive reasoning we can estimate a +P+ load of 42,000 PSI. "
I'm pretty sure that IV8888 did when they were <cough> "testing" the C9. But they had to custom hand-load the cartridges.Anyone ever fired +P+ ammo through a firearm? I cannot remember the last time I saw +P+ ammunition being sold at a gun store.
You beat me too it.Here’s the SAAMI data. That 38,700 Hornady uses is the “Maximum Probable Lot Mean.”
[...]
And here’s what the words mean.
[...]
Multiply by 100.OK so in the first chart under 9mm MAP there is a number "350". The top of the chart is cut off at least for me so I don't see what ever else is there. Is that 350 PSI ? How can the Maximum Average Pressure be 350 when it is loaded to 35,000+ PSI? Seems like a simple question??
shootersnotes.com
Are they still publishing Ruger Only loads? I thought they stopped doing that and you only see them in older manuals, not the new ones? Genuine question.Some older cartridges are "magnumized". Namely the 45 Colt and 45/70 G’ovt. These loads are published in reloading manuals as "Ruger Only" loads.
I can't agree. There were several .355 caliber cartridges which predate the 9mm Luger. 9mm Luger was just another. When it was developed, it was competing against earlier .355 cal. revolver cartridges and a number of .355 cal. semi-auto cartridges such as the 9mm Largo (developed the same year). 9mm Luger was able to achieve similar ballistics while using a shorter case, which meant smaller magazines, grip-sizes, and less volume for shipping/storing loaded ammunition. the tapered design also helped feeding over straight walled alternatives.The 9mm in my opinion was designed with penetration in mind with the objective being to kill men and also horses. The 9mm luger IIRC was available in 1902. in those days people wore heavy winter clothing and men still fought on horse back. Even today being able to shoot through a car or structures could be needed.
During the WWI period, number of 1" pine boards penetrated was one of the standard U.S. Army protocols for testing how effective a handgun cartridge was. They also tested how quickly it would dispatch a cow with a lung shot and how much it would cause a certain hanging target to swing.By the way a .22LR will penetrate a Pine board if it is thin enough - I have seen that. I've stomped on 1" pine boards with my foot and broke them in half - plenty good penetration I'd say. I've split length ways 2" Pine boards up for fire wood bare handed - not even using an axe.
They were also reported to take cocaine and then bind their limbs to prevent blood loss.'fighters when the .38 Special '
The US military in Philippines was using the blackpowder 38 long colt. A signficantly lesser round than a .38 spl. A NATO spec 9x19 out penetrates most .38 spl loads. The moros sometimes wore a make shift body armor also and it was said the 38 long colt would not penetrate it.
It may be because he's seen this arguments over and over again.Looks like you only have one train of thought🤓😂
Yes, and?9x19 was considerably more powerful than the 9mm/36 bore revolvers that were out there. The 9×23mm Largo (9mm Largo, 9mm Bergmann–Bayard, 9mm Bayard Long was actually said to be developed in 1901 and is the really about the same as the 9x19 and the later 9×23mm Steyr out in about 1912. The 38 ACP of 1900 is also about the same. They were all in about the same range of power and out classed the 38 special and rounds such as .38 S&W revolver rounds that were around. The 9 mm were all going significantly faster but with non-expanding bullets. The brits were still using a very slow .455 that probably made bigger holes in flesh, but yet these other powers that often used revolvers of similar bore got rid of the revolvers in favor of the newer smaller caliber high velocity round. Many were still using 30-32 revolvers like the swiss and french. The swiss got the 30 luger and not the .32 ACP. The mauser '96 was used also in many countries in 30 caliber, but I do not think it was often officially adopted.
Yes, and?The russians not going after an automatic went to to 'higher' velocity revolver; the whole reasoning behind the nagant 7.62x38R revolver was some what more velocity. In WWII the USSR had a high speed 80? grain ammo for the nagant.
Which doesn't particularly support your thesis that 9mm Luger was designed to kill horses and penetrate heavy clothing.So what does a metal cased higher velocity and often smaller caliber round get you over lower velocity. Well there is less drop and also a lot more penetration.
I'm not saying it's a particularly good metric, just a historically accurate one.For new military firearms almost always there metrics with penetration always being one of them. When wood is used, it is usually specified precisely as to what wood is used. For something like seasoned live oak, penetration of which will likely be very difficult for pistol rounds judging about how hard it is to stick an an axe into to it. I have a seasoned piece that I let sit too long to split and so I will try my 995 carbine out on it to see what it does.
Some pine boards are very soft and are what the karate people use for splitting. On yellow pine high velocity ,22 from a pistol will most often make it through a 2x8 and so two such boards are adequate for stopping a single such round. Repeated shots will defeat such a barrier.
I have tested stacks of such boards and some old spanish military 9x19 in those 25 round boxes did out penetrate my .45 ACP, but I have forgetten just how many more boards it got through. Winchester 9mm white box fmj does not use a military spec bullet and I have seen it deform when being fired through yellow pine boards. But then it is made for economy and not to pass nato spec.
Which is one reason why he went with a "Metal Patched" bullet, IMS.But it was designed to penetrate field gear...as I posted previously in a slightly less verbose manner than you.
It was designed to be lighter, more compact, have less recoil, penetrate the field gear of the time, and be more lethal at 50m. Straight from the designer himself...
Wasn't the Commander size originally designed as 9mm? Or was it the Officers? I know one was but I forget which.But "field gear" encompasses heavy clothing because cold weather gear exists.
Honestly, we could semantic this to death but I think everyone involved can agree that 9mm para/luger was designed to penetrate... full stop. It's main function was to punch holes in people at range better than the offerings of the time.
And the Germans DID submit it to the Army for testing and consideration to replace the .38 but the .45ACP obviously won. Imagine waking up tomorrow in a world where the iconic 1911 was a 9mm. The Great Caliber Debate might be just a whimper...
I know, but at the time they still referred to it as "metal patched" so I thought I'd use that. It's why I put it in quotes.Edit: You do realize that a "metal patched bullet" is just a fancy way to say "jacketed"... right? I have to ask because I'm still laughing at the egos in the "what gun did you buy" thread where things weren't clarified and someone admitted to trolling...
It was one of the standards, yes. I didn't say it was a good standard but they were working with the materials they had.So if I read you right stacking 1" pine boards and firing into them to measure penitration was the standard in WWI - correct? Interesting.
The Evil Overlords fragged up the whole article system. Now it's essentially the same as any other forum post but more irritating.Write an article and submit it to Kirk.
Hot buttered gifs?Well crap I was thinking of writing an article on why popcorn goes good with gifs
Butter is great on everything... Bread, popcorn, grits, women... but maybe I've said too much.Buttered pure lovely butter
You can mix your own knox gelatin. Just don't get the ratios wrong like I did.Good reading, and the historical aspect is appreciated. I think the course of the discussion is useful, I am starting reloading right now and the historical ballistics testing is good to know, because I may not have access to the state of the art stuff.
I used grocery store gelatin and got the ratio wrong.I used Jello...
I suppose bulk gelatin is not too terribly expensive?!?
$6 a pound, $301 for 50#
I've also heard YouTubers say it can be remelted but gets darker. Or maybe it was you, Klawson
