Poll: Should Teachers Carry Guns?

Discussion in '2nd Amendment' started by lklawson, Jul 16, 2014.

  1. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member

    The responses to answer to are kinda stupid.... The anti gun sounds like you don't even want police armed in schools... But in guessing that doesn't bother the antis at all.
     

  2. I voted yes, obviously. This poll is close right now.
    48% yes
    49% no
    3% unsure
     
  3. ekim

    ekim Member

    From the teachers I've met and they crap they are willing to teach and being lead by the nose by a dam union, NO. I don't trust them to do what is necessary. I sure as hell don't want to see some poor teacher made out to be a hero for playing wanna be cop. But then I don't trust most LEO's these days either.
     
  4. Considering the source (MSNBC - yuck!) it's closer than I would have thought. I say Yes, by the way.. :)
     
  5. cktvt

    cktvt Member

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    I'd say yes, let teachers CC if they want to, but there's some caveats.

    These teachers would not be carrying solely for self-protection, as would John Q. Citizen. They'd be carrying to protect members of the public, just like LEOs. So, just like LEOs, they should be required to train and periodically qualify if they want to remain certified for classroom CC.

    Untrained, unqualified people blasting away in a classroom full of kids is a bad idea, bad guys on the loose or not.
     
  6. I'll take untrained unqualifed teachers who's intent is to protect their class over that same person not having a gun and all of them being sitting ducks for an active shooter blowing the class away.
     
  7. cktvt

    cktvt Member

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    I hear ya Chromehorn and I won't say you're wrong, but if we want armed teachers we're going to have to do it the way I said or the public will never go along with it.
     
  8. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member


    +1 that!!!
     
  9. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    What the heck, dude!

    So...A- the public is only armed for their own protection, not for society? As a teacher, I'm not allowed to carry for my own protection? Then why should I carry for your kid?
    BTW...the courts have ruled the cops don't have to protect you, so logically, they are only carrying to protect themselves. Your argument is invalid.

    B- What makes you think I'm going to be blasting away? I mean seriously...why does EVERYONE go there every time the discussion comes down to anyone protecting others? It's a bad joke. It's a really bad joke considering how many times fully trained and qualified cops have started blasting away. Apparently the training isn't worth much.:rolleyes:



    Well, that isn't even close to right.

    Utah has allowed, and continues to allow, untrained, unqualified teachers to carry with nothing more than the Utah CCW, which involves zero gun handling.

    The public hasn't had any problems with it.

    Not trying to be a jerk. Just pointing out in very specific terms using actual facts.:p
     
  10. ArmyScout

    ArmyScout Supporting Member

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    My youngest daughter is a High School teacher. I started gun training her when she was around 12 yrs old. She is an excellent shot and is married to an ex Marine who she can outshoot any day of the week. They are members of a hunt and gun club in North Central IL, he has an IL ccw, she does not. Anyway I have posed the teacher carry question with her several times. She is in favor, but only after intense training, and I agree. Put a gun in the hands of someone who may have never handled or shot a firearm is absolute lunacy.
     
  11. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    And that's the other crazy place everyone goes.:rolleyes:

    Why do we assume teachers with no clue will jump at the chance to pack heat?:cool:

    Or, are we assuming the educational institutions will pick a few people at random, and ask them to strap up?:confused:

    Honestly...it's just not how it has to work. Teachers generally are sorta intelligent people, most have NO desire to pack at all, and the ones I know that can carry really don't want to be responsible to carry at school, though many are willing to do so, on their own.

    But they are intensely aware of the dangers involved in "blasting away" in a crowd.

    One of our major jobs, one of the things we really care about, is taking care of our/your kids. I just can't imagine any of us blindly blasting away at a bad guy, or going out and clearing the school. What most of us would do is follow our procedures to take care of our class, and if the BG came after them, we'd defend them.

    Seriously, it might be nice to get some training. Not because we'd be dangerous without it, but because we'd be more effective with it.;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  12. cktvt

    cktvt Member

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    Ajole, let's take your thoughts in order, one by one::

    A- the public is only armed for their own protection, not for society?
    Of course, some armed citizens would in fact come to the aid of innocent victims during a criminal attack. But since they are not required to, as LEOs are, they do not bear the burden of required training and qualifying. I could have explained this point in greater detail but it's rather extraneous to my main point which is that teacher training would be a good idea.

    As a teacher, I'm not allowed to carry for my own protection?
    I said "These teachers would not be carrying solely for self-protection". I never said they wouldn't or couldn't protect themselves. You vaulted to that false conclusion on you own.

    the courts have ruled the cops don't have to protect you
    Without getting into a protracted argument over the finer points of some obscure ruling which I've no doubt you can cite, let's just say the notion that police have no obligation to protect the innocent doesn't pass the test known as common sense. But whether true or not, this point of contention is also an extraneous one. I'm not arguing about what police should do but about what teachers should do.

    B- What makes you think I'm going to be blasting away?
    On this point, you're right - I simply should have said "shooting" instead of "blasting away".

    It's a really bad joke considering how many times fully trained and qualified cops have started blasting away. Apparently the training isn't worth much.
    I and many others in this forum would like very much to hear more about your judgment that LEO training "isn't worth much". Would you care to walk this one back Ajole or do you want to stick to this position?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  13. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    Actually, it wasn't a conclusion, it was a question to help me understand what you really meant.;)



    Absolutely not taking that one back.

    We've had threads here where we got all kinds of involved in reports and studies and opinion regarding police training and effectiveness, injuries to innocent bystanders, etc.

    But basically there are several well known cases, involving NYPD IIRC, where they DID blast away, hit many bystanders, and those cases are what I was referring to when I intimated that the training may not be all that and a bag of donuts.:p
     
  14. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    While it would seem to contravene common sense, it is actually 100% true, though often misunderstood. It's actually a rather famous ruling; just one google away. Heck, even Bing should be able to find it.

    Is it fair to assume, therefore that you're surprisingly unfamiliar with the unfortunate Mr. Diallo and is wallet or the well documented phenomenon of "Contagious Shooting?"

    That said, it is also well documented that many time LEO firearms training is lacking, either through systemic bureaucratic mismanagement, misunderstanding, and poor policy constructed by unqualified policy makers, often in very large and well-funded organizations, or simply by lack of funds and/or comprehensive policy, often in small and cash-strapped (frequently rural) organizations.

    Fortunately, while still sometimes true, it was never 100% of all LEOs and LEO organizations, and, as a percentage, poor training seems to be declining nationally due likely (imo) in large part to well publicized incidents such as the Diallo case or the general recognition that a requirement to re-qualify once per year with 10 rounds might not be sufficient as a policy.

    Nevertheless, the unfortunate fact is that cops are still humans and their bosses are still humans. Some of each are more competent than others and some have superior training to others, while yet others had inferior training and training policies to start with.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2014
  15. j_inmon

    j_inmon Member

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    I would point out though when a parent drops their child off at school, it then becomes the schools responsibility to insure their safety. It shouldn't be left up to the individual teacher to choose the amount of training, type of weapon, and so on because it is ultimately the schools responsibility, not the individual teacher. Just as in a school decides the amount of fire drills, the place everyone meets ect a single teacher can't decide they've had enough fire drills this year so they won't participate, or that they would rather meet somewhere else.
     
  16. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    That is of course correct.

    The problem is risk management.

    As soon as the institution decides it controls something, it also becomes liable.
    Someone gets hurt in a fire at a school that didn't do fire drills? Sue them.

    So, any school that decides it should somehow take control of arming teachers would then have to train them, possibly arm them, and bear the burden of responsibility for any problems.

    This is America, our real strength lies in our individuals.
     
  17. j_inmon

    j_inmon Member

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    A big issue would be penetration. you don't want to shoot five rounds into a bad guy and find out you killed three kids in the next room as well. If teachers are going to carry in the classroom I think that's something the schools should have rules for. Not necessarily the schools taking over the training, handing out weapons and so on, but rather putting in rules for those who wish to carry. (A minimum number of hours per year at the range, types of guns and ammo that can be carried to prevent over penetration, things like that)
     
  18. cktvt

    cktvt Member

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    Hornady's new reduced-penetration "Classroom Defense" round?
     
  19. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

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    We already have those rules. Laws regarding carry already exist, along with lots of precedent regarding who owns the bullet that goes past or through a target.

    My building is cinder block and steel studs, pre formed concrete slabs, and tempered glass doors. I'm not too worried about over penetration.

    Besides, maybe it's the religious guy in me, or maybe it's the western way, but if my kid were shot by accident by some guy trying to save another 50 kids...I'd cry with him, I'd be seriously unhappy...but I wouldn't blame him too much, as long as I knew he tried to do the right thing.

    It's a lot like being willing to accept your kid joining the military, and agreeing to fly bombers over Germany in WW2. You know they are probably going to die, but that's accepted, as it is necessary.
    Maybe my kid being killed by a teacher defending his class wasn't necessary...but if I wasn't there, how can I make that call? I DO feel like it was necessary to make the attempt, and to me, that's what matters.

    That's all easier for me because I know my son will be going to a better place, and because I know stuff happens, and some of it is absolutely mind numbing in it's tragedy...but it's just life on Earth, it's not the end.

    I know that's not the way many people think today, but there it is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2014