Recipe for the fall of an empire.

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by mr_flintstone, Nov 28, 2015.

  1. mr_flintstone

    mr_flintstone Supporting Member

    How do you cause the fall of a mighty civilization?

    First you introduce the rise of a new religion. At first you decree tolerance of the new religion; then as time passes, you allow the new religion greater and greater influence until it becomes the official state religion, and undermines the country's long held traditions.

    Second, you separate the empire into two fundamentally different ethnic groups speaking different languages and having different beliefs and values. Over time you begin to show preference for the new group over the old until the new gains control from the old.

    Third, you introduce a lack of production, a trade deficit, and devaluation of your currency to pay off state debts.

    Finally, you cut the size of your military, and introduce political changes to its function.

    We should have learned this lesson 1700 years ago when Constantine implemented these changes, and Rome began to decline and eventually fell due to these very reasons. I think that if you try, you can find some parallels with our modern day American society.
  2. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member

    More than a few......

  3. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Umm... What?

    Rome's economy wasn't based on trade. It was based on conquest and slaves.

    Rome's decline had jack-all to do with religion or any of the rest of that crap and Contstantine inherited an "Empire" already deep into its decline. He actually reinvigorated his half of the Empire. ...for a time, anyway.

    Peace favor your sword (mobile)
  4. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

    DEBT and Currency Devaluation was a big part of Rome's decline...
  5. mr_flintstone

    mr_flintstone Supporting Member

    I think most (but not all) refer to the Western Roman Empire when talking of the fall of Rome; not Constantinople which did last a while longer.

    Point taken, but when Constantine split the empire, he left Rome, and took the War machine with him. The Romans (still in Rome) needed and wanted stuff, but had no product of value to trade for it. Thus a trade deficit.
  6. Think1st

    Think1st Supporting Member

    These are actually characteristics of the Ottoman Empire. The various ethno-religious groups were administered through what was called a millet system, so each of them maintained their own local administration. Their respective leaders, then, just had to keep them in line, and send up the tax receipts from the tax farmers. There really was no Ottoman national identity--there was only an Ottoman identity for the Turks in Istanbul, with everyone else only identifying with their respective millets.

    Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire's lack of capitalism prevented the generation of revenue needed to the develop institutional capacity that was coming about through advances in Western Europe, and successive sultans tried to buy it through taking out loans from them. In the end, they fell to debt and decline associated with a system that couldn't support the kind of modern state model needed to remain viable in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    So, to a certain extent, the Ottomans much more effectively reflect your original thesis.
  7. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound ROLL wif Da MOLE! Supporting Member

    ...out-KIRKIFIED the Kirk-y-Frier :rofl:
  8. cicpup

    cicpup Resident PITA Supporting Member

    Got it! Beware of the Church of Scientology. Thanks for the warning.
  9. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    And happy to see it. :)

    But, honestly, I'm surprised you didn't home in on his comments on Ottoman debt. ;)

    Peace favor your sword (mobile)
  10. mr_flintstone

    mr_flintstone Supporting Member

    I was in a foul mood last night, and I agree that I probably oversimplified the situation. The fact remains, though, that devaluation of currency, lack of industrial production, increased welfare, and economic debt spells doom for any country. Whether it is the Romans, Medici ruled Florence, 17th century Spain, the Weimar Republic, the Soviet Union, modern Greece, or the USA, debt and devaluation never bodes well. All the rest just feeds the fire.
  11. Outlaw

    Outlaw Supporting Member

    The Church of Scientology is a joke. Had a family member hook up with it many years ago and immediately saw it for what it is...a money pit. As for the fall of America, you don't need to look at Rome or any other country. Just look within. "O" is getting exactly what he said he wanted. The fundamental degradation of America. The Socialists are creeping in at an alarming rate. Sad, but true. :foilhat:
  12. Atomic_Ed

    Atomic_Ed Member

    I have a old friend of mine that was dean of History at Oklahoma State University. He did his dissertation on casual factors for the decline of empires. The number one cause....


    When the overall taxation rates were kept to around 15% the empire thrived. As rates went up, the empire began to falter. Any overall tax rate above 30% spelled the final decline and failure of the empire.

    And where are we today in the U.S. with overall taxation?
  13. Follow the constitution, follow it not, and it will bite you in the arse. We need to return to tariffs, as was originally the means of federal revenue.

    Free trade is downright stupid.