Saiga question???

Discussion in 'Vintage Topic Archive (Sept - 2009)' started by CG-49 Plankowner, Dec 17, 2007.

  1. I have a Saiga 7.62x39 and purchased 4 30rd Sure Fire magazines. If I do no modifications to the rifle, is it legal to use these mags in my unmodified rifle?? The mags are US made and count for three parts.
     
  2. squeak_D

    squeak_D Guest

    The answer is NO. Although the mags are three part compliant, I was told you'd still be 1 part short and the easiest way to make the weapon compliant is to swap out either the stock, or foregrip with an American part. I was also told that it would be more reasonable too that if you're swaping out the stock, that you may as well swap out the foregrip. This way you're swaping two Russian made parts for two American parts. Better be safe than sorry I guess.

    I have a Saiga .223, and considered using a SureFire mag, but chose to only swap the stock with Saiga's skeleton stock as mine is used for hunting purposes.

    The rules are very strick here as well. You have to make sure you swap out the correct number of parts. The Saiga's in .223, 7.62, and 308 from the factory are literally borderline in regards to 922r. They're considered sporting rifles due to the traditional monte-carlo stock and hunting rifle style forgrip. Also the fixed mag capacity allows them to be classified as sporting rifles, even though the 10 rd mags exceed some state laws (where say 5rds is only acceptable). The moment you drop a 30rd mag into a Saiga it's no longer a sporting rifle, and is now an assault weapon (as 30rds is considered quite much for hunting purposes).

    So just swap out your stock/foregrip (or both), and enjoy. They're great and affordable rifles, and can't be beat for the price and quality (especially considering they're Russian made by Izhmash!)
     

  3. urotu

    urotu Member

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    squeak_D is right technically right.

    I use hungarian surplus 30 and 40 rounders in mine (7.62x39), and also sport a Russian (by Saiga) folding stock and have had no issues with local law enforcement.

    Is it 922r compliant? Not yet, as I get parts it's getting closer though.

    922r is a tricky law, but I have yet to read anyone being arrested, or charged on 922r violations, and I've seen guns that weren't compliant straight from dealers.

    Do your homework on 922r, know your laws. That's the best thing you can do. Then use your best judgement on shooting day.
     
  4. herrmannek

    herrmannek Guest

    since when magazine is a part of the rifle ?
     
  5. squeak_D

    squeak_D Guest

    The mags aren't part of the rifle, but what Surefire did was very good. To use a standard AK mag in a Saiga you have to modify. They're supposed to be sporting weapons, so for example the .223 is designed to hold a 10 rd Saiga mag.

    Surefire made a high capacity mag that can be used in current "un-modified" stock Saigas that do not require the owner to convert the weapon to hold them. The Surefire mag counts for up to 3 parts. However, using that mag with a stock Saiga, you'll still fall one part short of 922r.

    As one poster stated you really don't hear much about people getting arrested on 922r violations with Saiga's and I too have seen dealers selling them not in compliance as well.

    However, it's always best to be safe than sorry IMO. We live in a very judgemental world, and some of us are more likely to have the police called on us about a weapon we may own just based on our physical look. Me personally I wouldn't even think of taking my Saiga out in the front yard to show a neighbor. I ain't that dumb :)

    If you're reasonable with your weapon, and if it's a part shy of 922r.., as long as your not swinging that thing with both hands over your head drawing attention to yourself, you're more than likely to not have probs with law enforcement.
     
  6. Mordecai

    Mordecai Member

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    Since the assault weapons ban is no longer around, and hi-cap mags are now legal, whats makes it illegal?
     
  7. Okay, so, do I need to replace one of the russian parts to be legal or would adding more american parts, like a flash suppressor do it. :roll:
     
  8. neothespian

    neothespian Member

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    So, if I were to ensure total safety one would deduct that the best way to stay 922r compliant is to outfit your Saiga with as many American-made products as possible for your configuration?
     
  9. urotu

    urotu Member

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    Right, and technically, that means by having 10 or less imported parts from the parts list on your gun. I'm pretty sure the Saiga has 14 to start with before muzzle attachments, bullet guides, etc..

    BATF 922r is a crazy law that stepped in during the AWB to cover some guns that could possibly fall into the AW category.

    Saiga, for instance. A sporting gun, doesn't hold more than 10 rds, no pistol grip, etc.... It was made specifically to get around the AWB laws so it could be legally imported into the country.

    922r was created to regulate these kinds of guns, so there really is no correlation between the Clinton AWB and BATF 922r other than that.

    But 922r is so very vague in most of it's parts that it's almost impossible to read. It states, basically, that if you can get the imported parts count on your imported rifle down to under 10 parts, that then you can claim the firearm was American made, so the imported gun laws no longer apply.

    It's very hard to understand how and where it actually works though.

    The SIG-556 is an imported gun that, technically, falls under the jurasdictin of 922r (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), as well as all the new loads of old milsurp SKS, and all those nifty WASR's, and Yugo AK's. All fall under 922r regualtions, but they're all for sale somewhere right? No one has gone and replaced all those WASR trigger set-ups with new Tapco G-2 units, or put new US made gas pistons in all those SKS's. All these weapons falls directly under 922r and are currently for sale at a number of fine dealers across our nation.

    Also, all these new loads that have come available since the AWB lift, all come with high cap mags, and pistol grips, all bad things according to 922r.

    Some will argue that it's because these guns were built like this, and you're not modifying them like you need to the Saiga to get that classic AK look. That's why you can have a WASR with a hi-cap mag, it was available like that. However, 922r states you can't import a gun like that period. It states nothing of the original confifuration.

    As I've stated, I've looked for convictions on 922r, arrests for 922r violations, etc.. and always come up short. It almost looks as though it was written so that they could tack extrta stuff onto Joe Smuggler when he got busted with a load of Yugo underfolders, I don't know.

    I would advise that anyone really interested do some of your own research also and see what you think. This is a subject I would really like to discuss more openly in a different thread possibly.
     
  10. uncle jerky

    uncle jerky Well-Known Member

    12, "legal" factory 10 round Saiga mags=120 rounds at ready.
    4 Surefires @30=120. Take your chances.
     
  11. griff30

    griff30 Member

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    +1 ???
    I have been thinking about buying a 7.62 x 39 OR 308 Saiga after Christmas.
    There are 20 round mags for the 308.
     
  12. OK does any comapny (like Century) actually sell an AK that is complient out of the box?
     
  13. Ari

    Ari Guest

    it is all about where the gun is made. Saigas coming from Russia they have to live by different rules then the guns made here in the states. So Century guns are ok out of the box...
     
  14. Yes the Century AK's are legal out of the box and are ready to use with hi-cap magazines
     
  15. urotu

    urotu Member

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    Yes, I read that thread too. It's really all just mental masturbation.

    First, let's try to clear up a couple of things for the masses. Right now there is no AWB. What we are dealing with is a BATF statute. BATF 922r, so a searxh and look at all the propaganda on the internet and every where else about it.

    The only thing that the old AWB has to do at all with 922r is that 922r defines pre and post ban guns by by the dates of the old Clinton AWB>

    In it's own right, all 922r says is that you may not import any rifle that uses or is capable of using a hi-cap, detachable magazine. That is a mag that holds more than 10 rounds (for hi-cap), and you can remove from the gun.

    It also states what parts are considered what on which guns. Like an SKS has a different parts count than an AK, and those are different than other guns. If you add a pistol grip it counts as extra parts towards your compliance, blah, blah.

    They let you get around the statute by replacing the certain parts of your firearm with US made parts. The way it's written is that by replacing enough of the parts with US made parts make it a US made gun and not an import, so then 922r does not apply anymore.

    That being said, a preban gun (a gun that was manufactured before the Clinton AWB) doesn't have the limitations a postban gun (manufactured after AWB) has. So long as it was manufactured and imported before the AWB, then 922r doesn't apply. That's where it all becomes interpretation.

    The way it's written, all those guns fall under 922r, and none comply. Not even a new out of the box Sig 556. Not the Century guns, not the AK kits, not any of them. At least not by the letter of the law, according to BATF 922r.

    That being said, the original poster wanted to know about the legal ramifications of using the hi-cap mags in his gun. My Point is, they get sold all the time and used in this so-called "non-compliant" form. If you're using the gun responsibly, you shouldn't have a problem.

    I'm not trying to scare anyone into thinking that all these are scary illegal guns, quite the opposite. I want us all to see how silly these laws are so we can all exersize our rights to keep and bear arms. Do your reseach on 922r and judge for youself.

    I'll get off the soapbox now.