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And the long story short is, NATO 9mm ammo isn't truly +P because it's a 60/40 chance on the over/under of the SAAMI +P line and SAAMI themselves say its not really +P but it's warmer than the oldest 9mm handguns can handle.
Given that the 124 grn NATO load is eerily similar to the original Imperial German load, I would expect any Luger w/ in spec springs to handle it.
 

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Given that the 124 grn NATO load is eerily similar to the original Imperial German load, I would expect any Luger w/ in spec springs to handle it.
We know that, but SAAMI likes to imply they know better than common sense because it's a civilian agency run by lobbyists that the federal government uses to regulate its citizenry with then play dumb when we complain. Kind of like how the NFPA sets industry standards for code enforcement that aren't technically legally binding but can and will be used against you in court even if your own local AHJ doesn't require their implementation.
 
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Not exactly. The short version is that the NATO spec puts max pressure over that of SAAMI max for standard pressure.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
And SAAMI sets industry standards based on the lobbyists and lawyers employed by the ammunition manufacturers...

Plus the bottom end of NATO ammo is under the SAAMI max, so it's not really +P. It's more +/- P since it may or may not be over.
9mm NATO was spec'd in 1955-ish? When was the last time they adjusted 9mm SAAMI? How many times has it been changed over the years as handguns got lighter and smokeless powder efficiency has improved?

The first thing SAAMI, aka the ammunition manufacturers, did was eliminate like 90% of known shotgun loads and 75% of all metallic cartridge loads then "standardized" their own.

As previously mentioned, in the world of modern ammunition P, +P, +P+, and NATO are all just marketing

Now the world has SAAMI, CIP, and NATO specs to go off of.
 

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Israeli 9mm used to be loaded purty hot, seeing as they had to function in a variety of firearms.
The early M9's were prohibited from using IAI ammunition because it was too powerful.

Rerun
 

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Actually, it kinda does. It's just that SAAMI has no say in it.
Nor does NATO. You can literally stick the word NATO on a box of 22 shells, and no one has a say in that. Obviously, people would KNOW that’s just marketing BS….but so is most of the 9 mm NATO out there.
If you want to be technical, if the brass isn’t marked with the NATO cross in a circle, then it isn’t NATO at all, no matter what the box says on it.


Actually, NATO spec calls out both velocity and max pressure.
Dude…ALL cartridges have a max pressure….THAT isn’t what makes a round NATO. Approaching that is what makes it +P, but….we don’t know if it even comes close.


375 m/s minimum in their test barrel (I think it's 7" long or something)
Less than or equal to 2950 bar, which, after being adjusted for different measuring systems equates to 36,500 psi in SAAMI method (or 37,000 psi radial copper measure).
Yes….yes….let the technical but meaningless data with mixed measurements and units flow through you….

SAAMI max for 9mm Parabellum is 35,000, which is 1,500 psi less than max NATO spec but under the SAAMI max of 38,500 for +P. Anything falling between 35,000 and 38,500 would fall under SAAMI +P specs.
Just FYI…IIRC, those are different max specs. One is an average Max, one is a Max. So not exactly Granny Smith vs Macintosh.


The confusion comes from the fact that the velocity is a required minimum which the pressure is a not-to-be-exceeded maximum.
If the manufacturer can make the minimum velocity without exceeding SAAMI or CIP, then the NATO spec doesn't care.
Yes. My point exactly. Thanks for reiterating it.

BUT NATO spec 9mm might exceed SAAMI max for standard pressure and you have no way to know if it does or doesn't. But NATO pressure spec does fall snugly in between SAAMI max for standard pressure and max for +P. Truthfully, this means that NATO spec 9mm probably is +P, you just don't have any way of knowing for sure.
Oh…and again! Thanks for re-reiterating it.

So, actually, yes, 9mm NATO probably is +P most of the time.
Assuming it’s ACTUALLY NATO spec, and not just 124 grains at some lawyer loaded bottom of the spec velocity with NATO on the box…which is legal….and….

….WHICH IS MY POINT.
 

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In other words, buy a couple more mags and get something else to use as now I have a discontinued model.
Something else to use….for what? If it works….shoot it up. I have two SR’s, one in 40, one in 9 mm. Heck, 90% of the guns I own are “discontinued”, but I have no qualms about “using” them.
Are you just trying to keep it pristine for future collectible status, or what?
 

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That's my read. I haven't understood Ruger's direction in service pistols since they dropped the P series.
They’re chasing it, rather than leading. Make a gun like everyone else’s, don’t sell as many as the bean counters thought they would, partly because you have 5 different guns competing with themselves, so you obviously need to develop a completely new design…based on everyone else’s.

My guess is the next flavor of the day will be modular.

Expect the next Ruger to be a FCU, that will fit in a duty module, and a compact module, and a race gun module, and a sub compact module….etc.
 

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They’re chasing it, rather than leading. Make a gun like everyone else’s, don’t sell as many as the bean counters thought they would, partly because you have 5 different guns competing with themselves, so you obviously need to develop a completely new design…based on everyone else’s.

My guess is the next flavor of the day will be modular.

Expect the next Ruger to be a FCU, that will fit in a duty module, and a compact module, and a race gun module, and a sub compact module….etc.
Modular - like the Ruger American?

https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/RAP-chassisL.jpg

Trigger Air gun Gun barrel Automotive exterior Gun accessory
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Here's a question for AL and anyone else, but @ajole always has good input on this...

Thinking about a Scope for these here Ruger PCCs and wondering if a BDC is worth the extra $$ or what.
 

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Yes....but with actual parts that go with it. Compare Sig module and accessory availability with Ruger....it's sad for Ruger.


Here's a question for AL and anyone else, but @ajole always has good input on this...

Thinking about a Scope for these here Ruger PCCs and wondering if a BDC is worth the extra $$ or what.
Not on a 9mm, unless you WANT to try to shoot 150 yards with a popgun.
 

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Not on a 9mm, unless you WANT to try to shoot 150 yards with a popgun.
Great answer, I'd just like to be able to explore the limits of the combo, then decide that I'd better just as well switch to the AR15 for everything over that.
So what scope or other style optic would you suggest, keeping a budget in mind, along with a realistic distance? I've seen you recommend various BSA stuff. I'm just wondering if anything stands out...
 

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Great answer, I'd just like to be able to explore the limits of the combo, then decide that I'd better just as well switch to the AR15 for everything over that.
So what scope or other style optic would you suggest, keeping a budget in mind, along with a realistic distance? I've seen you recommend various BSA stuff. I'm just wondering if anything stands out...
I think the Primary Arms ACSS stuff is the answer; and bonus....there's a sale on an unmagnified ACSS Circle/Chevron with BDC dots, and a 2.5X ACSS Prism sight. Check your messages.

Another possiblity would be a LPVO, like this one....which I have. Circle dot, bright enough for daylight use, 1X (almost) so you can do both eyes open, 4X so you can see a bit better at 100 yards. No BDC, you'll have to hold over with a 9 mm.

https://www.amazon.com/CenterPoint-...ref=sr_1_2?keywords=CenterPoint+Optics&sr=8-2
 

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Yes....but with actual parts that go with it. Compare Sig module and accessory availability with Ruger....it's sad for Ruger.

Not on a 9mm, unless you WANT to try to shoot 150 yards with a popgun.
But I'm not afraid to drop a Ruger. :eek:

I shot my JHP from kneeling @ 130 yds - it did help the water tank was 6' tall. :)
 

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A modular chassis Ruger pistol/PCC would be ideal (for my taste). I, personally, would rather have the LC Carbine in 9mm &/or 10mm. I like the common pistol-style manual-of-arms (995ts). A PCC should be lighter and more compact than a true rifle. According to the Fed-bois I have to have a 16+" barrel. But why have the mag and chamber pushed so far forward when you don't need to? It makes the firearm longer/heavier for no good reason. And NO a "forearm brace" is not an answer! Current events anyone? Don't even get me started on buffer tubes on pistol caliber AR's. Plus, not everything needs to be an AR/AK pattern weapon. Dammit.
Yes, I'm done now.
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A modular chassis Ruger pistol/PCC would be ideal (for my taste). I, personally, would rather have the LC Carbine in 9mm &/or 10mm. I like the common pistol-style manual-of-arms (995ts). A PCC should be lighter and more compact than a true rifle. According to the Fed-bois I have to have a 16+" barrel. But why have the mag and chamber pushed so far forward when you don't need to? It makes the firearm longer/heavier for no good reason. And NO a "forearm brace" is not an answer! Current events anyone? Don't even get me started on buffer tubes on pistol caliber AR's. Plus, not everything needs to be an AR/AK pattern weapon. Dammit.
Yes, I'm done now.
That's the most annoying gif I've seen all day.

I'm most amused by AR-47s that take AK mags & AKs in 5.56x45 that take AR mags & AR furniture. Converging platforms. You're the 2nd person I've seen posting online that you'd like the LC Carbine in 9x19mm. Given that would take away from Ruger PC carbine sales, I don't see them doing that. Why not a SUB-2000?
 
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