Given that the 124 grn NATO load is eerily similar to the original Imperial German load, I would expect any Luger w/ in spec springs to handle it.
Same old questions on a new Ruger PC 9mm carbine...
Finding the same old answers, so thought I'd come home and just get the best available info 🤷‍♂️
"Is it +p rated" and I haven't seen anywhere that is stated, but one does see all the usual Yada-yada bs saying "it should handle it, Ruger has a good warranty, don't run a steady diet" and so forth.
So I'm fairly certain it's not officially rated +P but as some may know, I have a rather large store of 9mm NATO which works well in my experience, and provided that this firearm is like most out there, I will shoot NATO in this carbine. IMO it is the poor man's +P and I like the sealed bullets and primers. Long storage capable FOR THE WIN!!!
"Is it +p rated" and I haven't seen anywhere that is stated, but one does see all the usual Yada-yada bs saying "it should handle it, Ruger has a good warranty, don't run a steady diet" and so forth.
So I'm fairly certain it's not officially rated +P but as some may know, I have a rather large store of 9mm NATO which works well in my experience, and provided that this firearm is like most out there, I will shoot NATO in this carbine. IMO it is the poor man's +P and I like the sealed bullets and primers. Long storage capable FOR THE WIN!!!
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We know that, but SAAMI likes to imply they know better than common sense because it's a civilian agency run by lobbyists that the federal government uses to regulate its citizenry with then play dumb when we complain. Kind of like how the NFPA sets industry standards for code enforcement that aren't technically legally binding but can and will be used against you in court even if your own local AHJ doesn't require their implementation.Given that the 124 grn NATO load is eerily similar to the original Imperial German load, I would expect any Luger w/ in spec springs to handle it.
And SAAMI sets industry standards based on the lobbyists and lawyers employed by the ammunition manufacturers...Not exactly. The short version is that the NATO spec puts max pressure over that of SAAMI max for standard pressure.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Plus the bottom end of NATO ammo is under the SAAMI max, so it's not really +P. It's more +/- P since it may or may not be over.
9mm NATO was spec'd in 1955-ish? When was the last time they adjusted 9mm SAAMI? How many times has it been changed over the years as handguns got lighter and smokeless powder efficiency has improved?
The first thing SAAMI, aka the ammunition manufacturers, did was eliminate like 90% of known shotgun loads and 75% of all metallic cartridge loads then "standardized" their own.
As previously mentioned, in the world of modern ammunition P, +P, +P+, and NATO are all just marketing
Now the world has SAAMI, CIP, and NATO specs to go off of.
Israeli 9mm used to be loaded purty hot, seeing as they had to function in a variety of firearms.
The early M9's were prohibited from using IAI ammunition because it was too powerful.
Rerun
The early M9's were prohibited from using IAI ammunition because it was too powerful.
Rerun
Nor does NATO. You can literally stick the word NATO on a box of 22 shells, and no one has a say in that. Obviously, people would KNOW that’s just marketing BS….but so is most of the 9 mm NATO out there.Actually, it kinda does. It's just that SAAMI has no say in it.
If you want to be technical, if the brass isn’t marked with the NATO cross in a circle, then it isn’t NATO at all, no matter what the box says on it.
Dude…ALL cartridges have a max pressure….THAT isn’t what makes a round NATO. Approaching that is what makes it +P, but….we don’t know if it even comes close.Actually, NATO spec calls out both velocity and max pressure.
Yes….yes….let the technical but meaningless data with mixed measurements and units flow through you….375 m/s minimum in their test barrel (I think it's 7" long or something)
Less than or equal to 2950 bar, which, after being adjusted for different measuring systems equates to 36,500 psi in SAAMI method (or 37,000 psi radial copper measure).
Just FYI…IIRC, those are different max specs. One is an average Max, one is a Max. So not exactly Granny Smith vs Macintosh.SAAMI max for 9mm Parabellum is 35,000, which is 1,500 psi less than max NATO spec but under the SAAMI max of 38,500 for +P. Anything falling between 35,000 and 38,500 would fall under SAAMI +P specs.
Yes. My point exactly. Thanks for reiterating it.The confusion comes from the fact that the velocity is a required minimum which the pressure is a not-to-be-exceeded maximum.
If the manufacturer can make the minimum velocity without exceeding SAAMI or CIP, then the NATO spec doesn't care.
Oh…and again! Thanks for re-reiterating it.BUT NATO spec 9mm might exceed SAAMI max for standard pressure and you have no way to know if it does or doesn't. But NATO pressure spec does fall snugly in between SAAMI max for standard pressure and max for +P. Truthfully, this means that NATO spec 9mm probably is +P, you just don't have any way of knowing for sure.
Assuming it’s ACTUALLY NATO spec, and not just 124 grains at some lawyer loaded bottom of the spec velocity with NATO on the box…which is legal….and….So, actually, yes, 9mm NATO probably is +P most of the time.
….WHICH IS MY POINT.
In other words, buy a couple more mags and get something else to use as now I have a discontinued model.Ruger told me today that while their American magwell adapter is available for the carbine, they are dropping the Ruger American pistol over the next two years.
That's my read. I haven't understood Ruger's direction in service pistols since they dropped the P series.In other words, buy a couple more mags and get something else to use as now I have a discontinued model.
Something else to use….for what? If it works….shoot it up. I have two SR’s, one in 40, one in 9 mm. Heck, 90% of the guns I own are “discontinued”, but I have no qualms about “using” them.In other words, buy a couple more mags and get something else to use as now I have a discontinued model.
Are you just trying to keep it pristine for future collectible status, or what?
They’re chasing it, rather than leading. Make a gun like everyone else’s, don’t sell as many as the bean counters thought they would, partly because you have 5 different guns competing with themselves, so you obviously need to develop a completely new design…based on everyone else’s.That's my read. I haven't understood Ruger's direction in service pistols since they dropped the P series.
My guess is the next flavor of the day will be modular.
Expect the next Ruger to be a FCU, that will fit in a duty module, and a compact module, and a race gun module, and a sub compact module….etc.
Modular - like the Ruger American?They’re chasing it, rather than leading. Make a gun like everyone else’s, don’t sell as many as the bean counters thought they would, partly because you have 5 different guns competing with themselves, so you obviously need to develop a completely new design…based on everyone else’s.
My guess is the next flavor of the day will be modular.
Expect the next Ruger to be a FCU, that will fit in a duty module, and a compact module, and a race gun module, and a sub compact module….etc.
https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/RAP-chassisL.jpg
Here's a question for AL and anyone else, but @ajole always has good input on this...
Thinking about a Scope for these here Ruger PCCs and wondering if a BDC is worth the extra $$ or what.
Thinking about a Scope for these here Ruger PCCs and wondering if a BDC is worth the extra $$ or what.
How far are you shooting it, & how much is your drop now w/ your chosen load?Here's a question for AL and anyone else, but @ajole always has good input on this...
Thinking about a Scope for these here Ruger PCCs and wondering if a BDC is worth the extra $$ or what.
Yes....but with actual parts that go with it. Compare Sig module and accessory availability with Ruger....it's sad for Ruger.Modular - like the Ruger American?
https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/RAP-chassisL.jpg
View attachment 77363
Not on a 9mm, unless you WANT to try to shoot 150 yards with a popgun.Here's a question for AL and anyone else, but @ajole always has good input on this...
Thinking about a Scope for these here Ruger PCCs and wondering if a BDC is worth the extra $$ or what.
Great answer, I'd just like to be able to explore the limits of the combo, then decide that I'd better just as well switch to the AR15 for everything over that.Not on a 9mm, unless you WANT to try to shoot 150 yards with a popgun.
So what scope or other style optic would you suggest, keeping a budget in mind, along with a realistic distance? I've seen you recommend various BSA stuff. I'm just wondering if anything stands out...
I think the Primary Arms ACSS stuff is the answer; and bonus....there's a sale on an unmagnified ACSS Circle/Chevron with BDC dots, and a 2.5X ACSS Prism sight. Check your messages.Great answer, I'd just like to be able to explore the limits of the combo, then decide that I'd better just as well switch to the AR15 for everything over that.
So what scope or other style optic would you suggest, keeping a budget in mind, along with a realistic distance? I've seen you recommend various BSA stuff. I'm just wondering if anything stands out...
Another possiblity would be a LPVO, like this one....which I have. Circle dot, bright enough for daylight use, 1X (almost) so you can do both eyes open, 4X so you can see a bit better at 100 yards. No BDC, you'll have to hold over with a 9 mm.
https://www.amazon.com/CenterPoint-...ref=sr_1_2?keywords=CenterPoint+Optics&sr=8-2
But I'm not afraid to drop a Ruger.Yes....but with actual parts that go with it. Compare Sig module and accessory availability with Ruger....it's sad for Ruger.
Not on a 9mm, unless you WANT to try to shoot 150 yards with a popgun.
I shot my JHP from kneeling @ 130 yds - it did help the water tank was 6' tall.
Actually yes. It's the closest thing I have to a possible future collectable. Aside from my mostly pristine 1974 Zenith console stereo with working record and 8-thrack player.Are you just trying to keep it pristine for future collectible status, or what?
A modular chassis Ruger pistol/PCC would be ideal (for my taste). I, personally, would rather have the LC Carbine in 9mm &/or 10mm. I like the common pistol-style manual-of-arms (995ts). A PCC should be lighter and more compact than a true rifle. According to the Fed-bois I have to have a 16+" barrel. But why have the mag and chamber pushed so far forward when you don't need to? It makes the firearm longer/heavier for no good reason. And NO a "forearm brace" is not an answer! Current events anyone? Don't even get me started on buffer tubes on pistol caliber AR's. Plus, not everything needs to be an AR/AK pattern weapon. Dammit.Modular - like the Ruger American?
https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/RAP-chassisL.jpg
View attachment 77363
Yes, I'm done now.
That's the most annoying gif I've seen all day.A modular chassis Ruger pistol/PCC would be ideal (for my taste). I, personally, would rather have the LC Carbine in 9mm &/or 10mm. I like the common pistol-style manual-of-arms (995ts). A PCC should be lighter and more compact than a true rifle. According to the Fed-bois I have to have a 16+" barrel. But why have the mag and chamber pushed so far forward when you don't need to? It makes the firearm longer/heavier for no good reason. And NO a "forearm brace" is not an answer! Current events anyone? Don't even get me started on buffer tubes on pistol caliber AR's. Plus, not everything needs to be an AR/AK pattern weapon. Dammit.
Yes, I'm done now.
I'm most amused by AR-47s that take AK mags & AKs in 5.56x45 that take AR mags & AR furniture. Converging platforms. You're the 2nd person I've seen posting online that you'd like the LC Carbine in 9x19mm. Given that would take away from Ruger PC carbine sales, I don't see them doing that. Why not a SUB-2000?
A) You're welcome.That's the most annoying gif I've seen all day.
,,,Why not a SUB-2000?
B) I think I could trust the Ruger more. The Sub-2000 would be more concealable though.
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