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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
People either love or hate this guy, ex LEO, but he does bring up some good points IMO. Think outside of the box. That throws the BG off and gives you a better chance.

This is a newsletter that I get from him, I believe the info to join up is at the bottom or is avaliable at his forum.

I am not really familiar with the forum, but I do read the newsletters.

WARRIOR TALK NEWS
SEPTEMBER UPDATE #2
Chokes, Comps, and the Elusive Tight Pattern

I think we often fall into the ALL OR NOTHING mentality with this issue of setting up a proper shotgun. For example, some would say, "Your shotgun either puts all pellets into a coffee cup at 25 yards, or it is an alley broom.". That is a mistake in my opinion. Just like sights or no sights, moving or stationary issues, there are degrees.

A shotgun...for me is a weapon. I don't play gun games, or hunt birds or any of that stuff. Neither am I delivering less lethal or breeching door with frangible rounds. Nothing wrong with them, but its just not my current mission.

Much of the shotgun lore today comes from the efforts of Jeff Cooper and his school. Cooper was first and foremost a rifleman. And he looked at every small arm from that perspective. That is not meant as a dig of any kind, but rather a simple statement of fact relayed to me by several of the instructors at the time, and verified in discussions with Cooper himself. For example, take a look at the doctrine for pistol use. The entire Modern Technique is basically an effort to run the pistol like a rifle. In the days I trained with him there was very little shooting done inside of 7 yards.

When they began looking at the shotgun, they took the same perspective.

Shots at Cooper's shotgun class (which I attended with my duty SGN of the day) were focused on extending the impact of the shotgun as far as possible, and keeping the "groups" tight and "scores" high. Interesting to note that we shot clay birds in the rifle class, but not in the shotgun class.

Just as guns get modified to fit a shooting match's requirements, so did guns get modified to do well in a certain training class. On came the ghost rings for those 200 yard slug shots, the side saddles and buttcuffs for those required shoot-one-load-one drills, and the chokes to keep the scores up there and produce "Experts".

Eventually, just as most others things gun writers write about, it becomes almost a religion to the "faithful".

A choked up, souped up, Modern Technique (MT) shotgun will do very well as MT gun school problems. But at the price of the original close range capability of the weapon.

I worked in a very densely populated area in SoCal, and got into a bunch of gunfights. Many of those were with a shotgun. Let me show you some trends I saw.

Shotgun Gunfight #1 - Bad guy shooting people on a beach at 0300 HRS. Shot fired by me at 15 yards in low light (moonlight). Bad guy hit with 10 of 12 pellets.
Shotgun Gunfight #2 - Bad guy robbing a Store. Bad guy running and shooting at us - shot at 3 yards. Spread of impact spread over his upper chest bypassed his ballistic vest. DRT. Low light - parking lot lights

Shotgun Gunfight #3 - Running gunfight in parking lot. Bad guy running away shooting a Glock 21 at us. Two shots fired...one hit him with partial pattern, second shot dropped him. Distance was 10 yards. Saved at hospital.

Note - The spread of the pattern is what allowed the hits on the bad guys due to the low light situation (and no...turning on your light would not have changed anything in any of these except the first shooting, and then the reality is we would have taken incoming fire), the rapidly moving fight (much more dynamic than the mover/poppers at the IDPA match), and the incoming shots, preculded anything but a mount the shotgun and nearly point shoot shoot method.

The shotguns used here were all off-the-rack Remington 870s with standard 4 shot magazines, wood stocks and cylinder bores. Ammo was Winchester 12 pellet magnum (no reduced recoil metrosexual loads in those days).

So that is my frame of reference about what a shotgun needs. I think its a mistake to try to turn it into something it is not.

We are often asked about which shotgun one should buy. Without reservations I will tell you this. The Saiga 12, de-sporterized, is the epitome of the fighting shotgun today. Does everyone need the epitome of the fighting shotgun? No...they can make do with what they have for limited duties. Even an Old West Double barrel will work to kill a home invader in your bedroom.

But if you goal is the best, the suitably set up Saiga is the best. An 870 or 1187 (or even a Mossberg 500) can be made to do wondrous things as long as you keep the MT stuff off the gun, but it is not in the same ballpark at the point when certain actions are required.

A semi auto however, is miles ahead of a pump action, and a magazine fed weapon is miles ahead of a one-at-a-time loading process. Again...if your goal is other than ultimate combat efficiency, you can make do with anything.

In my book -

Ultimate Shotgun - Combatized Saiga 12
Second place - Suitably set up semi-auto (1187 for example)
Third Place - Suitably set up pump action (Rem 870 for example)
Fourth Place - Stock Saiga 12
Fifth Place - Double barrel shotgun

We were also asked about the Poly Choke system.
I had a Poly on a SGN back in the 1990s. The only problem is that you will rarely have enough intel to know what sort of pattern you need, and if something changes suddenly, by the time you have changed your choke, the problem will have changed again.

Changing to slugs is also very time consuming and in our research we are only aware of one in-fight transition to a slug load ever having been successfully done as relayed by Farnam!!

My only experience doing this was in one deal where it began as a very close range fight. I shot the first guy, and was going to shoot a second when I realized he was running away (armed and shooting back) reaching beyond what I could reasonably do with the shotgun. I changed to slug immediately.

Now...I had practiced this alot and could do it faster than anyone I had ever trained with. This was the accepted method for fixing that tactical issue. However, before I was finished, the bad guy was gone and no longer a target.

I would also have not had time to dial up the required choke. And for those who would say this is an arguement for the Comp type barrel treatment, I will reply that the first shot on the original bad guy was an airbag shot, totally reactive and barely placed in time. A slug loaded shotgun, or an over-choked shotgun would not have yielded the results I got with a cylinder bore pattern.

Quite a dilema isn't it? Until we develop a system to instantly operate the polychoke via telepathy, I think the only option is to -

1). Realize the shotgun is not as versatile as a rifle
2). Realize the shotgun is best used in its proper niche
3). Optimize it for that niche and avoid mis-selecting it for emotional reasons for rifle problems

That said, the art of the shotgun has fallen back due to the MT influence and excessive focus on games and school drills. Let's see if we can change this.
__________________
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
One Source Tactical
[email protected]
Office 928-776-4492
 

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You know whats funny about that article and his chosen shotguns? I LOVE my double barreled gun. I have a really nice Rossi coach gun. 20 inch barrels, SxS with real working rabbit ear hammers.

Its damned fun to shoot that thing, makes you feel like a cowboy.
 
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The one thing he said that I like is this "A semi auto however, is miles ahead of a pump action" But his mission needs are far different then mine. I am not a leo on patrol. I also can not afford to train with the shotgun and the pistol and the rifle. So I had to make some choices and since I want something that does not spread out ( In my situation) I chose the rifle and the pistol to spend my training budget on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thats me too, I picked the shotty because it will be a defensive close in weapon, and I have no one close enough to me to really worry about overshooting and hitting.

I can blast away and hopefully stop whatever threat is happening for me to have had to open fire in the first place.

Of course we never know what is going to happen until it happens.
 

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I personally like Suarez, a couple of friends of mine (LEOs) have been to some of his classes and really seemed to like what they picked up form it.
I've got his AK rifle technique DVD and really like it.
 

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The thing with me and the shotty is this: I shoot enough shot gun rounds a year *Over 1000+* dove, duck and turkey hunting, I am pretty good on a fly shot. Now, once you change to slugs, you've in effect, made that shotgun a rifle for all intents and purposes, it does the same job.

So, for me, I have a "training" budget and a "hunting" budget. Between the 2, I get plenty of trigger time behind the pistol, shotty and rifle to improve, or at least stay proficient, which of course, is always the goal.
 

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The thing with me and the shotty is this: I shoot enough shot gun rounds a year *Over 1000+* dove, duck and turkey hunting, I am pretty good on a fly shot. Now, once you change to slugs, you've in effect, made that shotgun a rifle for all intents and purposes, it does the same job.

So, for me, I have a "training" budget and a "hunting" budget. Between the 2, I get plenty of trigger time behind the pistol, shotty and rifle to improve, or at least stay proficient, which of course, is always the goal.
Same situation Primal though not quite as many shotty rounds as you, about half as many.
 
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Good article . I have two shotguns . I keep a 870 for hunting only , and a moss 500 with a short barrel and no plug in it for home defence . Its loaded with 3inch buck shots . The farthest possible shot in my house is 25 feet . Buck is devastating at that range . I may now have to look into a semi-auto .
 

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Lookie what I came across while unarchiving some stuff.

Resurrecting this one for useful and/or interesting information/discussion.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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They're all cyclical topics, aren't they.....
 
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