[Datsun40146]

Hello Hi-Point Forums!

I had a quick thought when I was considering the effective range of the 9mm round when fired from a carbine type rifle. Most of the data I found seemed to agree that 150 yards was the average effective range of the round when fired from a 16 inch barrel. That is not to say that the round can't be deadly or accurate at 200 yards or greater. However luck seems to play more of a role than skill at greater ranges. However 150 yards just isn't enough range for yours truly and I like a challenge so I a ask myself "how does one increase the range of the 9mm"?

I thought of a few methods.
1. Do not use a FMJ round as you get 'free' velocity from a hard cast lead round thus increasing range. This works because the lead slips down the barrel easier than the copper and thus retains more velocity
2. Use a slow burning powder to take advantage of the longer barrel. Something like a +P+ but with slow powder.
3.Use as heavy as a round as possible to prevent the weather from moving your shot too much. (this can be debated, as I am uncertain)

Now we come to the meat of the question....aerodynamics.
3. I know that in rifle rounds spitzer style bullets travel farther because of their aerodynamically sharper profile. So I thought I'd look around for 9mm boat-tail spitzer bullets. I didn't find much. Does anyone know if a 9mm spitzer bullet would even work?

Would a some enterprising hand loader like to try an all lead, slow powder burning spitzer 9mm round for the greater good?

 

[jmstevens2]

First thoughts are what about feeding and OAL? Won't help if it won't load.

 

[squirrel_slayer]

over all length will be what makes your idea not work. I however have the same idea your thinking only more realistic. I had a bullet caster make me some custom 158 grain lead semi wad cutters in brinell 22. only major difference is I want to keep them subsonic at 1050fps. also remember the heavier the bullet the larger it is and the less case volume you'll have for powder. the fastest I think I could get that 158gr bullet is a touch over 1100fps.

once my rifle shows up i'll be posting results on my 90grain screamer (shooting for 2000fps) and the bone crushing 158gr lwsc (basiclly ballistically similar to a 5.5" 357 mag pistol.)

 

[squirrel_slayer]

as you can probably see the bullet is almost as long as the case. just shy by about .020"

 

[Datsun40146]

Alright if bullet size is the key, then change materials. The next logical step is this; for lead to weight X amount it has to take up so much room, this is due to lead's density. So to create more room in the case one needs to make the round smaller but also remain the same weight. This can be done by increasing the density of the bullet material. The only material that I know of that has a greater density than lead that isn't radioactive is tungsten. Which just so happens to be used on green shooting ranges. What would it take to cast up a powdered tungsten spitzer 9mm. The bullet could be shorter and set father back into the case thus allowing more powder which would keep the fps up and the OAL within tolerance.

 

[squirrel_slayer]

if it becomes to hard you may damage the rifling in the barrel. tungsten is very hard which will also prevent expansion upon impact (which is what your looking for in most bullets) also due it's hardness it would most likely be clasified as a armor piercing round which could get you in trouble if your caught with it.

also where have you seen tungsten ammo? i'm curious. only ammo that I know that has tungsten are tungsten core ap rounds?

on a side note. the guy who casted the bullets for me also had a mold for a lead round nose 158gr bullet which would be shorter in length to allow more case volume but I want the blunt tip to hit harder and i'm going to soften it as well. these are casted then heated in a oven then immediatly dropped into water to get a greater brinell hardness. these are tested to brinell 22. lead has a natural brinell of 5 so he said if I put them in a water bath to the height of where I want the softening to stop then use a propane torch and heat them till the point of where it starts to almost flow then stop and allow it to air cool. this will keep the base of the bullet hard to keep it from leading the barrell as much and also act as a hardened base for the softer nose of the bullet to expand against thus allowing it to mushroom and keep weight retention to help penetration. sort of like the old school poor mans partition in design. I love picking people's brains, old people rule for knowledge.

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

the russians use a 9mm spitzer bullet in teh 9x39mm rifle/SMG round. its a 7.62x39mm case necked up to 9mm. its a subsonic round designed for suppressed special forces weapons.

now for a spitzer 9mm round, firstly WOULD NOT feed. it would have to be single load. you could take a 35 cal rifle bullet, and cut it at the cannelure, then re-cannelure it (or use a barnes bullet with multple drive bands, you could use the front drive band groove at the crimp cannelure) and load according to weight. id say theyd be pushing 140-150 grs but thats doable ina 9mm. you could also load a 175 gr hornady bullet and seat it long so the powder charge would fit. youd have to use something SLOW liek blue dot or power pistol and work up a load.

yes its doable but the single loading problem is basically unfixable because of the long OAL.

SW

 

[squirrel_slayer]

to add to wolverine's single load principle is you'll have to either throat the bore accordingly or once the ogive of the bullet engauges the lands your stuck at that oal.

now something that may be fun to toy around with is if you had a 4095 carbine and somehow put a rechamberd 995 barrel on it and make some sort of 357sig with a spitzer style bullet. that way you'd have more case volume for powder to propel a spitzer at a decent velocity to get any sort of expansion. most rifle bullets are designed to expand at higher velocities to reduce fragmentation on heavier game to ensure adequate penetration.

 

[Datsun40146]

OK what about a re-chamber to accept .357 sig rounds? The OAL and case diameter are similar. It would take a competent gunsmith and a barrel blank to make it happen. I found the blank for 80 USD figure double that for the smithing and you've got a great carbine that fires a round much quicker than even a +P+ 9mm. That would increase the range no?

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

we've gone down teh 357 sig road in teh suiggestion zone. we figured the pressure curve and recoil impulse was incompatible with teh 4095. you would have to do some serious modification to teh bolt and recoil spring to make it work.

SW

 

[squirrel_slayer]

we've gone down teh 357 sig road in teh suiggestion zone. we figured the pressure curve and recoil impulse was incompatible with teh 4095. you would have to do some serious modification to teh bolt and recoil spring to make it work.

SW

hmm interesting. I know the sig p229 is changable from .357 sig to .40 s&w with nothing more than a barrel change? it's blow back operated as far as I know. I was just playing around with quickload and using a slower powder can almost replicate a 40s&w pressure curve at 40s&w+p pressures. even at a modest 36,000psi (max for .357 sig is 44,236psi and 40 s&w is 35,000max) it's still 180fps faster than 9mm in the same bullet weight(124gr) and 285fps faster at max pressure. a 90grain in .357 sig would be zinging at 2400fps if it would fit. but then you might run into barrel twist rate issues.

disclaimer. all above figures are theoritical with software and assuming a 16.5" barrel

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

yeah, i can get changeover barrels for my glocks as well, but they reccomend the use of a wolf recoil spring along with the replacment barrel. it isnt strictly required but highly reccomended.

also at that point you are reaching velocities where pistol bullets may simply disitegrate. they arent made to fly that fast. if you could sub in a rifle bullet it would be different.

the thing we ran into with teh 357 SIG was most of the powders used in it are too fast for a carbine barrel, and you would have to develop a load around a powder that isnt made for use in teh SIG round.

SW

 

[Datsun40146]

It wouldn't be that hard for a reloaded with a chronograph to work up a load would it? Does any one have a link to the suggestion zone thread about the .357 sig conversion? I had a hard time finding it. Thanks for all the great info!

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

the problem would lie withthose who only buy off teh shelf ammo to shoot. pistol loaded 357 SIG wouldnt work in a carbine. for a custom one off gun it would be fine.

SW

 

[finishman2000]

i'm loading 135gn cast with aa#7 and getting 1250 fps out of my uzi i could easily push this up to 1500fps.
i think jackets are less resistant in the barrel than lead. jackets are at .355 and lead are a little larger.

 

[squirrel_slayer]

yeah i had my cast bullets sized at .356

 

[Datsun40146]

I found information that I belive would be useful if I ever decided to make my own spitzer style 9mm for a carbine.
http://www.corbins.com/design.htm
http://www.corbins.com/bullets.htm#uld
http://www.corbins.com/bullets.htm#spitzer

This site has everything one would need to create the ultimate in 9mm distance shooting with a carbine.

 

[Silicon Wolverine]

ive drooled over corbins stuff for years. price is just too far out there for the home enthusiast.

SW

 

[Datsun40146]

Yeah I know what you mean, just as an example I did a quick calculation on what it would cost me to make a copper jacketed, spitzer .355 mm with rebated boattail. I think the total was well over 2,000 USD in just equipment to make the bullets. Then even if I made them I'm unsure how well they would work...