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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Technically I guess I should say the 38-55 Winchester and it’s offspring as the 38-55 is the parent case of the 30-30. But I am going to just stick with 30-30 and it’s offspring / siblings that I have actually had the opportunity to shoot.

The 25-35 Winchester was introduced along with the 30-30. An underrated cartridge with a small but loyal following that deserves more than it gets.

The 32 Winchester Special. Developed by Winchester shortly after introduction of the 30-30 cartridge for reloaders using black powder.

The first 30/30 based wildcat I had any experience with was the .35/30-30. Often the accuracy of the 32 Winchester Special suffered. Possibly because of the slow twist, but in my opinion more likely because poor maintenance allowed the barrel to deteriorate. The fix was to rebore to 35 caliber. This is a good cartridge comparable to the 35 Remington in performance.

The second 30-30 wildcat I had experience with was the 7mm International Rimmed. Basically the 30-30 necked to 7mm. It was a popular cartridge for metallic silhouette.

The 219 Zipper deserved to be more popular than it was. The 30-30 necked to 22 and chambered in a lever action rifle. It was hampered by the necessity to use flat pointed bullets and inherent accuracy problems with lever actions. The 219 Zipper performs similarly to the 22 Remington and is itself the parent case for the 219 Donaldson wasp and the 219 Zipper Ackley Improved.

Speaking of improved cartridges, the 30-30 Ackley Improved is among the best. Even if you only use standard 30-30 load data, improved case life is worth in by itself.

The 30 and 357 Herret are designed specifically for the Contender pistol. Basically the 30-30 and 35/30-30 case shortened to better take advantage of the faster burning powders used in them. Out of a 10" barrel the 30 Herret actually shoots faster than the 30-30 with comparable bullets. It has less muzzle blast as well.

there are other viable wildcats based on the 30-30 starting at about .22 and going up to about 40 caliber. I have no experience with them but am intrigued by the BRM (Bench Rest Magnum) cartridges by E. Arthur Brown Company. Available in bullet diameters from .224 to .308. I am especially interested in the 6.5mm BRM.
 

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...and the 219 Zipper Ackley Improved.

Speaking of improved cartridges, the 30-30 Ackley Improved is among the best. Even if you only use standard 30-30 load data, improved case life is worth in by itself...
Correct me if I am wrong, (and I am wrong a LOT!) but whatI think I knw about this "A.I." stuff is this: Most necked rifle cartridges have a steep angle and the AI treatment makes a more gradual funnel shape (fewer degrees of angle) and better ballistic performance in many calibers. I have also read that this reduced angle can be reamed into the chamber and the brass 'fire-formed' out of new brass, making it a free mod after the chamber reaming, at least.

Better case life, you say? Makes sense. Now fill in the blanks Greg :D
 

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Not a different cartridge, but definitely variants of the 30-30, I’ve been working on reloading .30 WCF Short Range, and .30 WCF Miniature cartridges. Originally commercially called the .30-6-100, the .30-30 Short Range was a 100 grain cast bullet loaded with 6 grains of smokeless powder for a velocity of about 1000 FPS. The .30 WCF Miniature was a metal patched or half jacket 100 grain bullet loaded to about 1450 FPS. They were designed to give 30-30 users the equivalent of a 32-20 rifle load for small game.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Correct me if I am wrong, (and I am wrong a LOT!) but whatI think I knw about this "A.I." stuff is this: Most necked rifle cartridges have a steep angle and the AI treatment makes a more gradual funnel shape (fewer degrees of angle) and better ballistic performance in many calibers. I have also read that this reduced angle can be reamed into the chamber and the brass 'fire-formed' out of new brass, making it a free mod after the chamber reaming, at least.

Better case life, you say? Makes sense. Now fill in the blanks Greg :D
Correct me if I am wrong, (and I am wrong a LOT!) but whatI think I knw about this "A.I." stuff is this: Most necked rifle cartridges have a steep angle and the AI treatment makes a more gradual funnel shape (fewer degrees of angle) and better ballistic performance in many calibers. I have also read that this reduced angle can be reamed into the chamber and the brass 'fire-formed' out of new brass, making it a free mod after the chamber reaming, at least.

Better case life, you say? Makes sense. Now fill in the blanks Greg :D
The 30-30 AI takes the taper out of the standard 30-30 sharpens the shoulder and moves the shoulder forward. The straighter case results in a reduction of rearward thrust (bolt thrust) thereby reducing case stretch - thus longer case life. There is an obvious increase in case capacity. And the 30-30 AI still shoots the standard 30-30 just fine. That's how you make cases! The only drawback is that the AI design may not function in repeating (lever action) rifles as slick as the tapered standard case does.
30-30 Win on left 30-30 AI on right
Amber Cylinder Ammunition Gun accessory Bullet


And I can not have this conversation without thinking about the Kilbourne Hornet or K-Hornet. It does for the 22 Hornet what the 30-30 AI does for the 30-30 Winchester.

The 30 WCF and 22 Hornet are old case designs. Tapered and thin walled. 2 or 2 full power firings and the cases are mostly done for. They are very susceptible to incepient case head separation. The AI or Kilbourne treatment will double or more case life.
Parallel Rectangle Font Symmetry Drawing
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Not a different cartridge, but definitely variants of the 30-30, I've been working on reloading .30 WCF Short Range, and .30 WCF Miniature cartridges. Originally commercially called the .30-6-100, the .30-30 Short Range was a 100 grain cast bullet loaded with 6 grains of smokeless powder for a velocity of about 1000 FPS. The .30 WCF Miniature was a metal patched or half jacket 100 grain bullet loaded to about 1450 FPS. They were designed to give 30-30 users the equivalent of a 32-20 rifle load for small game.
I have had some luck loading #1 buck in the 30-30, better luck with #0 buck run through a sizer which gives it longer flat sides to engage the rifling.

I have used the half jackets with a few grains of Unique. Soft bullets that expand rapidly. It can do a number on small game I you are not careful.
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If you cast, make up some of the Lee 113 grain "soup can" bullets. They are an excellent small grain bullet. The flat point transfers energy well. Plus I just feel better about the cast at low velocity. I have never stuck a half-jacket in the bore, but I have heard too much anout it to think it can not happen.
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You probably already know, but unlike cartridges like the 25-06, which seem to but different weight bullets into almost these hole, the 30-30 requires a different sight setting for different weight bullets once you get a few yards from the muzzle. Example: av170 grain bullet at 2100 fps with av100 yard zero will see a 150 grain bullet at 2550 FPS in the dirt at about 90 yards, while the 113 grain soup can at about 1100 FPS will be almost a foot high at 100 yards. Dwell time I do believe.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
still has a following. hornady lever revolution also. View attachment 67123
A good round. I can't believe I left it out. I always kind of thought of it as the 7mm International Rimmed given the AI treatment. I have long held that take almost any 30 caliber cartridge and neck it to 7mm and you get something good.
 
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The 30-30 AI takes the taper out of the standard 30-30 sharpens the shoulder and moves the shoulder forward. The straighter case results in a reduction of rearward thrust (bolt thrust) thereby reducing case stretch - thus longer case life. There is an obvious increase in case capacity. And the 30-30 AI still shoots the standard 30-30 just fine. That's how you make cases! The only drawback is that the AI design may not function in repeating (lever action) rifles as slick as the tapered standard case does.
30-30 Win on left 30-30 AI on right
View attachment 67145

And I can not have this conversation without thinking about the Kilbourne Hornet or K-Hornet. It does for the 22 Hornet what the 30-30 AI does for the 30-30 Winchester.

The 30 WCF and 22 Hornet are old case designs. Tapered and thin walled. 2 or 2 full power firings and the cases are mostly done for. They are very susceptible to incepient case head separation. The AI or Kilbourne treatment will double or more case life.
View attachment 67147
So I had it "bass ackwards"...

Doing the AI Treatment is just a chamber reaming and still uses standard 30-30 rounds, which fire-forms the brass to AI specs! Save it and reload it!!
I'm asking cuz I could prolly get Dad's Marlin 336 for my use at any time. Would be a great mod, especially once I get the dies and reloading for that caliber.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
So I had it "bass ackwards"...

Doing the AI Treatment is just a chamber reaming and still uses standard 30-30 rounds, which fire-forms the brass to AI specs! Save it and reload it!!
I'm asking cuz I could prolly get Dad's Marlin 336 for my use at any time. Would be a great mod, especially once I get the dies and reloading for that caliber.
Be warned. The AI design can give feeding issues in a lever action. I know of a gent who has a custom lever rifle built around the cartridge. He claims no problems, but they are documented, so beware. Except for the custom model 94, all, of the 30-30 AI rifles I know of have been single shots or the Savage 340 bolt gun.
 

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From E. Arthur's Brown website at https://www.eabco.com/Reports/report03.html

6.5mm BRM
- Optimized for the heavy 140 gr bullets and 1:8 rifling twist, this cartridge has seen phenomenal success hunting big game all over the world. Most popular for deer and antelope hunting in our Model 97D Rifle. The 140 gr 6.5mm bullet compares to a 190 gr 30 caliber bullet in deadly impact... But with far less recoil.
6mm BRM - Optimized for 100 grain .243 caliber bullets with a 1:8 rifling twist, this cartridge gives velocities approxi-mately the same as .243 Winchester on bullet weights of 90 grains and less... Excellent Antelope cartridge. Load lighter bullets, and it doubles as a terrific varmint cartridge, too.
7mm BRM - Optimized for the heavy 160-162 gr bullets and 1:9 rifling twist, this cartridge performs almost as well as the 6.5mm BRM but has not enjoyed the same success. The 162 gr 7mm bullet offers the same huge sectional density as the 140 gr. 6.5mm but the 6.5mm BRM recoils a little less and has a phenomenal kill reputation.



These being rimmed cartridges, they have options(i.e. heavy 6.5 bullets) that the cartridges that have to feed through an AR15 action such as the 6.5 Grendel don't. Obvious that the expectations of a break action single shot vs. an AR15 based rifle are different. Personally, I'm getting a 6.5 Swede barrel for my Encore due to the current ammo situation and I do have a Odin Works 20" 6.5 Grendel AR15 which was my 60th BDay gift to myself.

Regards,
 
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I started out deer hunting with a .30-30. A fun little cartridge, and I started a few years later handloading for it. Always wanted to have it reamed for Ackley Improved.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I started out deer hunting with a .30-30. A fun little cartridge, and I started a few years later handloading for it. Always wanted to have it reamed for Ackley Improved.
I have not reamed my current 30-30. Nor have I reamed my current 22 Hornet. The ones I lost in the great fire of '99 were both reamed to AI / K respectively.

I probably should ream my current 22 Hornet to .219 Zipper. Would not cost any more than reaming it to K Hornet, and just a couple of bucks for a 30-30 extractor. I once had a 22 Hornet reamed to 219 Zipper and shot 52 grain bullets out of its 1:14 twist barrel. My current Hornet barrel has a 1:9 twist. It should handle 55 to 62 grain bullets. Probably get 2800 - 2900 fps out of it.

Dang, you have me thinking now. Maybe I can find a 223 Survivor and have my current 223 chambered for the Zipper. Then I would have a Hornet and a Zipper!
 

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Be warned. The AI design can give feeding issues in a lever action. I know of a gent who has a custom lever rifle built around the cartridge. He claims no problems, but they are documented, so beware. Except for the custom model 94, all, of the 30-30 AI rifles I know of have been single shots or the Savage 340 bolt gun.
Sooo... what is the nature of mods required for reliable feeding in a lever gun?
Prolly be apparent if one ran some AI dummy loads thru the tube, or is the feeding problem at the chamber? I could see it being from the tub to the breech and then to the chamber, maybe. 2 trouble spots...
 

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From E. Arthur's Brown website at https://www.eabco.com/Reports/report03.html

6.5mm BRM
- Optimized for the heavy 140 gr bullets and 1:8 rifling twist, this cartridge has seen phenomenal success hunting big game all over the world. Most popular for deer and antelope hunting in our Model 97D Rifle. The 140 gr 6.5mm bullet compares to a 190 gr 30 caliber bullet in deadly impact... But with far less recoil.
6mm BRM - Optimized for 100 grain .243 caliber bullets with a 1:8 rifling twist, this cartridge gives velocities approxi-mately the same as .243 Winchester on bullet weights of 90 grains and less... Excellent Antelope cartridge. Load lighter bullets, and it doubles as a terrific varmint cartridge, too.
7mm BRM - Optimized for the heavy 160-162 gr bullets and 1:9 rifling twist, this cartridge performs almost as well as the 6.5mm BRM but has not enjoyed the same success. The 162 gr 7mm bullet offers the same huge sectional density as the 140 gr. 6.5mm but the 6.5mm BRM recoils a little less and has a phenomenal kill reputation.



These being rimmed cartridges, they have options(i.e. heavy 6.5 bullets) that the cartridges that have to feed through an AR15 action such as the 6.5 Grendel don't. Obvious that the expectations of a break action single shot vs. an AR15 based rifle are different. Personally, I'm getting a 6.5 Swede barrel for my Encore due to the current ammo situation and I do have a Odin Works 20" 6.5 Grendel AR15 which was my 60th BDay gift to myself.

Regards,
I just know all of my 6.5x55mm Swedish Mausers shoot lights out. The Swedes over there I have gotten to know very well, claim from Moose down a decent hit makes them DRT! I can certainly see why.
 
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